8 ms·

I'm a little confused by these two quotes. "The first ever solid state thermal solution" "Inside AirJet are tiny membranes that vibrate at ultrasonic frequency

I'm a little confused by these two quotes. "The first ever solid state thermal solution" "Inside AirJet are tiny membranes that vibrate at ultrasonic frequency" How is it solid state if it has moving parts?

etrautmann 4y ago
Likely a piezo or mems device. Both of those use material flexture or deformation to achieve some output.
- defanor 4y ago
  Do piezoelectric fans count as being solid state too, then? If so, this one wouldn't be the first.
  - weinzierl 4y ago
    "Do piezoelectric fans count as being solid state too, then?" Not in my book. The first thing that comes to my mind when I hear "solid-state" and "cooling" in a sentence is "peltier element". The name "AirJet" gave it already away though, that this is likely something different.
    - defanor 4y ago
      > The name "AirJet" gave it already away though, that this is likely something different. They mention that those are MEMS membranes in the presentation [1]. But it also sounds like Airjet developers (or marketers) count MEMS membranes as solid-state, and piezoelectric fans as not, while I wonder where the line is. [1] https://youtu.be/YGxTnGEAx3E?t=146 https://youtu.be/YGxTnGEAx3E?t=146
      - weinzierl 4y ago
        > "They mention that those are MEMS membranes in the presentation [1]." This video was really insightful, thanks. Especially interesting was, that they use an effect called jet impingement that is also used in jet engines. > "But it also sounds like Airjet developers (or marketers) count MEMS membranes as solid-state, and piezoelectric fans as not, while I wonder where the line is." I think I can imagine where this distinction comes from. MEMS devices can usually be manufactured in facilities and with materials and processes very similar to those used for producing semiconductor chips like processors. Piezoelectric elements, on the other hand, require special materials and their production doesn't fit very well into the common semiconductor manufacturing process. Now, the step to call everything traditional semiconductor industry related "solid-state" is not that big.
- beautifulfreak 4y ago
  It's a mems device, not piezo.
postalrat 4y ago
It's quite normal to be confused what solid state means. For example vacuum tubes don't have moving parts and aren't considered solid state.
- hliyan 4y ago
  I always interpreted "solid state" to mean "neither clanky nor sloshy"
  - fuzzfactor 4y ago
    Well for electronic components your basic three chioces for states of matter are solid, liquid, and gas. Silicon crystals are naturally solid-state, car batteries and most can capacitors are liquid-state with their electrolyte, leaving many vacuum tubes no other choice but to be gaseous-state. Now these air chips don't have any electrolyte so that rules out liquid, and all the components are solid materials so the component itself is actually solid-state, and so are other MEMS devices, even though they have moving parts. Like an electric motor which is just iron, copper, and steel, a key solid-state electrical component. It's still just a motorized fan.
    - mort96 4y ago
      That sounds completely wrong? We don't consider hard drives or fans "solid state", even though they're not liquid or gas. The difference between what's considered "solid state" and what's not seems to mostly be in whether the component has major moving parts.
      - fuzzfactor 4y ago
        SSD means the data itself is stored on semiconductor (memory) chips, instead of a physical magnetic pattern on the mechanical recorder of a HDD. Other than electrolytic capacitors, both peripherals are electrically solid-state. Even the helium in some HDDs is for physical purposes, not as a gaseous electrical element.
nyolfen 4y ago
they are not mechanical parts, a speaker also vibrates but is solid state
- lazide 4y ago
  Speakers are not solid state by any definition I’ve run across (except for piezo ones, anyway).
- atoav 4y ago
  Then a solenoid with a piece of membrane over it would also be solid state. Why stop there, a servo with a piece of membrane would also be solid state. Why stop there, a motor with a membrane.. This definition makes no sense to me. The above are electromechanical parts. Piezos are somewhat an exception because electricity directly leads to a parts deformation without magnetic field moving a component of that part in an electric field. In fact a piezo is just one part with two contacts.
  - fuzzfactor 4y ago
    >Then a solenoid with a piece of membrane over it would also be solid state. >Why stop there, a servo with a piece of membrane would also be solid state. >Why stop there, a motor with a membrane.. >Piezos All Correct. Even when they are electrically powered, hydraulic and pneumatic servos are not usually liquid-state or gaseous-state electrical devices except for any vacuum tubes or electrolytic components. When the electricity flows only through solid materials like copper, carbon, or silicon, and doesn't (intentionally) flow across things like liquids, air gaps, or evacuated spaces, that's solid-state.
    - CBarkleyU 4y ago
      > All Correct. Says who?
      - mort96 4y ago
        Says someone who incorrectly thinks "solid state" here refers to the state of matter and thinks anything that's neither liquid nor gaseous is "solid state".
agumonkey 4y ago
Yeah it's fluffy terminology. They use that to distinguish from usual mechanically assembled devices. With rotating parts, friction, etc. This is more like a one part cast/deposited with some degree of elastic deformation. Supposedly a lot more reliable.
4RealFreedom 4y ago
Wasn't dlp labeled as solid state even though it had spinning mirrors?
sschueller 4y ago
It's built similar to the accelerometers and the compass you have in your phone. MEMS devices are considered solid state.
kyriakos 4y ago
Maybe falls in the MEMS category. For example we consider accelerometers to be solid state but they aren't.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

etrautmann 4y ago

Likely a piezo or mems device. Both of those use material flexture or deformation to achieve some output.

defanor 4y ago
Do piezoelectric fans count as being solid state too, then? If so, this one wouldn't be the first.
- weinzierl 4y ago
  "Do piezoelectric fans count as being solid state too, then?" Not in my book. The first thing that comes to my mind when I hear "solid-state" and "cooling" in a sentence is "peltier element". The name "AirJet" gave it already away though, that this is likely something different.
  - defanor 4y ago
    > The name "AirJet" gave it already away though, that this is likely something different. They mention that those are MEMS membranes in the presentation [1]. But it also sounds like Airjet developers (or marketers) count MEMS membranes as solid-state, and piezoelectric fans as not, while I wonder where the line is. [1] https://youtu.be/YGxTnGEAx3E?t=146 https://youtu.be/YGxTnGEAx3E?t=146
    - weinzierl 4y ago
      > "They mention that those are MEMS membranes in the presentation [1]." This video was really insightful, thanks. Especially interesting was, that they use an effect called jet impingement that is also used in jet engines. > "But it also sounds like Airjet developers (or marketers) count MEMS membranes as solid-state, and piezoelectric fans as not, while I wonder where the line is." I think I can imagine where this distinction comes from. MEMS devices can usually be manufactured in facilities and with materials and processes very similar to those used for producing semiconductor chips like processors. Piezoelectric elements, on the other hand, require special materials and their production doesn't fit very well into the common semiconductor manufacturing process. Now, the step to call everything traditional semiconductor industry related "solid-state" is not that big.
beautifulfreak 4y ago
It's a mems device, not piezo.

postalrat 4y ago

It's quite normal to be confused what solid state means. For example vacuum tubes don't have moving parts and aren't considered solid state.

hliyan 4y ago
I always interpreted "solid state" to mean "neither clanky nor sloshy"
- fuzzfactor 4y ago
  Well for electronic components your basic three chioces for states of matter are solid, liquid, and gas. Silicon crystals are naturally solid-state, car batteries and most can capacitors are liquid-state with their electrolyte, leaving many vacuum tubes no other choice but to be gaseous-state. Now these air chips don't have any electrolyte so that rules out liquid, and all the components are solid materials so the component itself is actually solid-state, and so are other MEMS devices, even though they have moving parts. Like an electric motor which is just iron, copper, and steel, a key solid-state electrical component. It's still just a motorized fan.
  - mort96 4y ago
    That sounds completely wrong? We don't consider hard drives or fans "solid state", even though they're not liquid or gas. The difference between what's considered "solid state" and what's not seems to mostly be in whether the component has major moving parts.
    - fuzzfactor 4y ago
      SSD means the data itself is stored on semiconductor (memory) chips, instead of a physical magnetic pattern on the mechanical recorder of a HDD. Other than electrolytic capacitors, both peripherals are electrically solid-state. Even the helium in some HDDs is for physical purposes, not as a gaseous electrical element.

nyolfen 4y ago

they are not mechanical parts, a speaker also vibrates but is solid state

lazide 4y ago
Speakers are not solid state by any definition I’ve run across (except for piezo ones, anyway).
atoav 4y ago
Then a solenoid with a piece of membrane over it would also be solid state. Why stop there, a servo with a piece of membrane would also be solid state. Why stop there, a motor with a membrane.. This definition makes no sense to me. The above are electromechanical parts. Piezos are somewhat an exception because electricity directly leads to a parts deformation without magnetic field moving a component of that part in an electric field. In fact a piezo is just one part with two contacts.
- fuzzfactor 4y ago
  >Then a solenoid with a piece of membrane over it would also be solid state. >Why stop there, a servo with a piece of membrane would also be solid state. >Why stop there, a motor with a membrane.. >Piezos All Correct. Even when they are electrically powered, hydraulic and pneumatic servos are not usually liquid-state or gaseous-state electrical devices except for any vacuum tubes or electrolytic components. When the electricity flows only through solid materials like copper, carbon, or silicon, and doesn't (intentionally) flow across things like liquids, air gaps, or evacuated spaces, that's solid-state.
  - CBarkleyU 4y ago
    > All Correct. Says who?
    - mort96 4y ago
      Says someone who incorrectly thinks "solid state" here refers to the state of matter and thinks anything that's neither liquid nor gaseous is "solid state".

agumonkey 4y ago

Yeah it's fluffy terminology. They use that to distinguish from usual mechanically assembled devices. With rotating parts, friction, etc. This is more like a one part cast/deposited with some degree of elastic deformation. Supposedly a lot more reliable.

4RealFreedom 4y ago

Wasn't dlp labeled as solid state even though it had spinning mirrors?

sschueller 4y ago

It's built similar to the accelerometers and the compass you have in your phone. MEMS devices are considered solid state.

kyriakos 4y ago

Maybe falls in the MEMS category. For example we consider accelerometers to be solid state but they aren't.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]