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I'm just very wary of the 'white supremacist terrorism' narrative that politicians and alphabet agencies have been trying to sell lately to justify increases in

by boppo1 4y ago

I'm just very wary of the 'white supremacist terrorism' narrative that politicians and alphabet agencies have been trying to sell lately to justify increases in domestic surveillance/police state infrastructure. And don't get me wrong, I spend plenty of time on 4chan watching this shit, I know there are some truly hateful and dangerous people out there. But It doesn't seem like they're as organized as the narrative would have us believe. Hell, Patriot Front seems like one of the meaner orgs and it didn't take long for them to be revealed as probably being an FBI honeypot. On one hand I'm spooked by letter agencies. On the other, it seems like they're doing a pretty good job infiltrating and undermining domestic hate organizations, perhaps to the point that they're outright running them, albeit into the ground.

wereallterrrist 4y ago
>to sell lately to justify increases in domestic surveillance/police state infrastructure. what evidence or even personal narrative do you have to back this assertion? >But It doesn't seem like they're as organized as the narrative would have us believe phew-boy, I don't have any inside knowledge of this because I have other things that keep my attention, but I'm quite sure that there MIGHT be a bit of a infosec/skill gap between the chuds posting on /b/ and the folks actually rolling out with assault rifles, knowledge, and intent to knock (a) power substation(s) offline. There's all this incredulity in this thread but really, some dudes are gonna go knock out an entire power substation to rob a cash register? If I were one for Occam's Razer... Frankly I really, really don't get this incredulity. We have numerous, fairly recent historical (in multiple senses of the word!) incidents that clearly point to both organized and unorganized groups of people who seem to fit a certain psychological profile of being motivated by fear and disgust and a very on-going, observable ability to be whipped into a violent frenzy when told its justified.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- hatefulmoron 4y ago
  >There's all this incredulity in this thread but really, some dudes are gonna go knock out an entire power substation to rob a cash register? If I were one for Occam's Razer... If they're not robbing a cash register, they're white supremacists? Surely that's a leap itself...
  - wereallterrrist 4y ago
    That's not what I said, and I think it's a bit disingenuous. Across the country, attacks on critical infrastructure are increasing. Attacks that are described and taught in literature that we KNOW FOR A FACT is circulated among certain types of violent-leaning groups. That's what I said, and meant. I am not making a claim that it's white supremacists. It's starting to smell like projection. /shrug
- ilyt 4y ago
  > but I'm quite sure that there MIGHT be a bit of a infosec/skill gap between the chuds posting on /b/ and the folks actually rolling out with assault rifles, knowledge, and intent to knock (a) power substation(s) offline. Why? Point a gun at big obvious target doesn't take intelligence and only minimum skill. They don't need to have any knowledge, just shoot the big squarey boxes till the lights go down. Or hell [1] ask the internet what will happen > There's all this incredulity in this thread but really, some dudes are gonna go knock out an entire power substation to rob a cash register? If I were one for Occam's Razer... Actually, random terrorist act would probably be great way to keep local police busy for some time if you wanted a distraction for something else criminal to happen... "Crazy rednecks doing stupid shit" is more simplistic explanation, but not that much more. * [1] https://www.quora.com/What-happens-when-a-person-with-an-assault-rifle-shoots-the-transformer-on-the-wooden-pole https://www.quora.com/What-happens-when-a-person-with-an-ass...
  - wereallterrrist 4y ago
    Are you uninformed or being disingenuous on purpose regarding these attacks and the nature of them?
    - ilyt 4y ago
      You're the one throwing unsubstantiated consipracy theories, not me
- deleted 4y ago
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jonathanlb 4y ago
> 'white supremacist terrorism' narrative that politicians and alphabet agencies have been trying to sell If white supremacist terrorist attacks are actually happening (and they are), then it's not a fictional narrative that the public is being told. Furthermore, I'm curious how that is linked to the following point. > increases in domestic surveillance/police state infrastructure I'd like to point out that given that police [1] have been infiltrated by white supremacists and three-letter agencies are doing nothing about it [2] this would seem to disproportionately affect people of color, to say nothing about surveillance that already occurs with open-source and private data. It seems that your fears are misplaced/misinformed at best. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/27/white-supremacists-militias-infiltrate-us-police-report https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/27/white-suprem... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/20/fbi-white-supremacist-violence-michael-german https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/20/fbi-white-su...
- boppo1 4y ago
  From your first article: "hundreds of police officers have been caught posting racist and bigoted social media content" According to Statista[0] there were 660,288 officers in the US in 2021. Even one racist cop is too many, granted. But if we assume the maximum on 'hundreds', 999/660,288 = 0.0015. 0.15% is still a problem, but your article makes it sound like a pervasive problem, which it clearly isn't. That article also spends about half its length heavily implying that Kyle Rittenhouse was a far-right white nationalist militant hunting protestors. If you watched the trial, you would know that's certainly untrue despite the prosecutor & news' best efforts to paint him otherwise. This article is exactly an example of the false narrative I was talking about. White nationalists are fucking scary. But outlets like The Guardian are making money fear mongering that they're lurking behind every corner, that your police and firemen and friends and neighbors are all cryptofascists.
  - jonathanlb 4y ago
    You left the first point unaddressed- that there is a white supremacy problem in the United States, and the fact the people of color are _already_ under police state surveillance. Secondly, your argument that _only_ 0.15% of cops are racist is disingenuous. If you RTFA [1]: > Obviously, only a tiny percentage of law enforcement officials are likely to be active members of white supremacist groups. But one doesn’t need access to secretive intelligence gathered in FBI terrorism investigations to find evidence of overt and explicit racism within law enforcement. Since 2000, law enforcement officials with alleged connections to white supremacist groups or far-right militant activities have been exposed in Alabama, California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Louisiana, Michigan, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oregon, Texas, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, and elsewhere. > Research organizations have uncovered hundreds of federal, state, and local law enforcement officials participating in racist, nativist, and sexist social media activity, which demonstrates that overt bias is far too common. > These officers’ racist activities are often known within their departments, but only result in disciplinary action or termination if they trigger public scandals. > Few law enforcement agencies have policies that specifically prohibit affiliating with white supremacist groups. Instead, these officers typically face discipline, if at all, for more generally defined prohibitions against conduct detrimental to the department or for violations of anti-discrimination regulations or social media policies. Firings often lead to prolonged litigation, with dismissed officers claiming violations of their First Amendment speech and association rights. Most courts have upheld dismissals of police officers who have affiliated with racist or militant groups, following Supreme ? Court decisions limiting free speech rights for public employees to matters of public concern. > Courts have given law enforcement agencies even greater latitude to restrict speech and association, citing their “heightened need for order, loyalty, morale and harmony.” It's fine if you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend the infiltration of law enforcement and military by white supremacists isn't happening, but that won't make it true. Furthermore, your argument that it's all a media conspiracy to enable the government to spy on white people is... sketchy. [1] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidd...
lelanthran 4y ago
> I'm just very wary of the 'white supremacist terrorism' narrative that politicians and alphabet agencies have been trying to sell lately to justify increases in domestic surveillance/police state infrastructure. "OMG Racists!" is the new "Think of the children!".
- mrtesthah 4y ago
  I mean sure, as long as you’re a white christian man, why would you ever need to fear violent acts committed by white christian nationalists? Now if you’re Muslim, Sikh, Jewish, or any other religion, or your skin is dark, or you’re a woman, or you’re gay or trans —- and therefore have legitimate safety concerns… well then that’s just more identity politics, isn’t it?
  - mc32 4y ago
    The groups listed above have many more enemies than your premise presumes. Even in their traditional homelands; additionally, many of the above are targeted within their own larger ethnic communities. Further, I don’t recall passing by a church and not seeing a rainbow flag; I cannot say the same for other religious houses of worship except for synagogues which also tend to fly the flag.
    - mrtesthah 4y ago
      It does not logically follow that gaining a second enemy would necessarily reduce the threat from the first. I also don't see the connection between your personal anecdotal experience of churches (presumably you live in a major metropolitan area) and white christian nationalists. Are you trying to imply that white christian nationalists are LGBT-friendly? Are you familiar with their beliefs?
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > I mean sure, as long as you’re a white christian man, I'm not. Well, at least you got one out of three. People like you are annoying people like me, especially when you pretend that you are talking on behalf of me.

by boppo1 4y ago

wereallterrrist 4y ago

>to sell lately to justify increases in domestic surveillance/police state infrastructure. what evidence or even personal narrative do you have to back this assertion? >But It doesn't seem like they're as organized as the narrative would have us believe phew-boy, I don't have any inside knowledge of this because I have other things that keep my attention, but I'm quite sure that there MIGHT be a bit of a infosec/skill gap between the chuds posting on /b/ and the folks actually rolling out with assault rifles, knowledge, and intent to knock (a) power substation(s) offline. There's all this incredulity in this thread but really, some dudes are gonna go knock out an entire power substation to rob a cash register? If I were one for Occam's Razer... Frankly I really, really don't get this incredulity. We have numerous, fairly recent historical (in multiple senses of the word!) incidents that clearly point to both organized and unorganized groups of people who seem to fit a certain psychological profile of being motivated by fear and disgust and a very on-going, observable ability to be whipped into a violent frenzy when told its justified.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hatefulmoron 4y ago
>There's all this incredulity in this thread but really, some dudes are gonna go knock out an entire power substation to rob a cash register? If I were one for Occam's Razer... If they're not robbing a cash register, they're white supremacists? Surely that's a leap itself...
- wereallterrrist 4y ago
  That's not what I said, and I think it's a bit disingenuous. Across the country, attacks on critical infrastructure are increasing. Attacks that are described and taught in literature that we KNOW FOR A FACT is circulated among certain types of violent-leaning groups. That's what I said, and meant. I am not making a claim that it's white supremacists. It's starting to smell like projection. /shrug
ilyt 4y ago
> but I'm quite sure that there MIGHT be a bit of a infosec/skill gap between the chuds posting on /b/ and the folks actually rolling out with assault rifles, knowledge, and intent to knock (a) power substation(s) offline. Why? Point a gun at big obvious target doesn't take intelligence and only minimum skill. They don't need to have any knowledge, just shoot the big squarey boxes till the lights go down. Or hell [1] ask the internet what will happen > There's all this incredulity in this thread but really, some dudes are gonna go knock out an entire power substation to rob a cash register? If I were one for Occam's Razer... Actually, random terrorist act would probably be great way to keep local police busy for some time if you wanted a distraction for something else criminal to happen... "Crazy rednecks doing stupid shit" is more simplistic explanation, but not that much more. * [1] https://www.quora.com/What-happens-when-a-person-with-an-assault-rifle-shoots-the-transformer-on-the-wooden-pole https://www.quora.com/What-happens-when-a-person-with-an-ass...
- wereallterrrist 4y ago
  Are you uninformed or being disingenuous on purpose regarding these attacks and the nature of them?
  - ilyt 4y ago
    You're the one throwing unsubstantiated consipracy theories, not me
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jonathanlb 4y ago

> 'white supremacist terrorism' narrative that politicians and alphabet agencies have been trying to sell If white supremacist terrorist attacks are actually happening (and they are), then it's not a fictional narrative that the public is being told. Furthermore, I'm curious how that is linked to the following point. > increases in domestic surveillance/police state infrastructure I'd like to point out that given that police [1] have been infiltrated by white supremacists and three-letter agencies are doing nothing about it [2] this would seem to disproportionately affect people of color, to say nothing about surveillance that already occurs with open-source and private data. It seems that your fears are misplaced/misinformed at best. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/27/white-supremacists-militias-infiltrate-us-police-report https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/27/white-suprem... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/20/fbi-white-supremacist-violence-michael-german https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/20/fbi-white-su...

boppo1 4y ago
From your first article: "hundreds of police officers have been caught posting racist and bigoted social media content" According to Statista[0] there were 660,288 officers in the US in 2021. Even one racist cop is too many, granted. But if we assume the maximum on 'hundreds', 999/660,288 = 0.0015. 0.15% is still a problem, but your article makes it sound like a pervasive problem, which it clearly isn't. That article also spends about half its length heavily implying that Kyle Rittenhouse was a far-right white nationalist militant hunting protestors. If you watched the trial, you would know that's certainly untrue despite the prosecutor & news' best efforts to paint him otherwise. This article is exactly an example of the false narrative I was talking about. White nationalists are fucking scary. But outlets like The Guardian are making money fear mongering that they're lurking behind every corner, that your police and firemen and friends and neighbors are all cryptofascists.
- jonathanlb 4y ago
  You left the first point unaddressed- that there is a white supremacy problem in the United States, and the fact the people of color are _already_ under police state surveillance. Secondly, your argument that _only_ 0.15% of cops are racist is disingenuous. If you RTFA [1]: > Obviously, only a tiny percentage of law enforcement officials are likely to be active members of white supremacist groups. But one doesn’t need access to secretive intelligence gathered in FBI terrorism investigations to find evidence of overt and explicit racism within law enforcement. Since 2000, law enforcement officials with alleged connections to white supremacist groups or far-right militant activities have been exposed in Alabama, California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Louisiana, Michigan, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oregon, Texas, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, and elsewhere. > Research organizations have uncovered hundreds of federal, state, and local law enforcement officials participating in racist, nativist, and sexist social media activity, which demonstrates that overt bias is far too common. > These officers’ racist activities are often known within their departments, but only result in disciplinary action or termination if they trigger public scandals. > Few law enforcement agencies have policies that specifically prohibit affiliating with white supremacist groups. Instead, these officers typically face discipline, if at all, for more generally defined prohibitions against conduct detrimental to the department or for violations of anti-discrimination regulations or social media policies. Firings often lead to prolonged litigation, with dismissed officers claiming violations of their First Amendment speech and association rights. Most courts have upheld dismissals of police officers who have affiliated with racist or militant groups, following Supreme ? Court decisions limiting free speech rights for public employees to matters of public concern. > Courts have given law enforcement agencies even greater latitude to restrict speech and association, citing their “heightened need for order, loyalty, morale and harmony.” It's fine if you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend the infiltration of law enforcement and military by white supremacists isn't happening, but that won't make it true. Furthermore, your argument that it's all a media conspiracy to enable the government to spy on white people is... sketchy. [1] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidd...

lelanthran 4y ago

> I'm just very wary of the 'white supremacist terrorism' narrative that politicians and alphabet agencies have been trying to sell lately to justify increases in domestic surveillance/police state infrastructure. "OMG Racists!" is the new "Think of the children!".

mrtesthah 4y ago
I mean sure, as long as you’re a white christian man, why would you ever need to fear violent acts committed by white christian nationalists? Now if you’re Muslim, Sikh, Jewish, or any other religion, or your skin is dark, or you’re a woman, or you’re gay or trans —- and therefore have legitimate safety concerns… well then that’s just more identity politics, isn’t it?
- mc32 4y ago
  The groups listed above have many more enemies than your premise presumes. Even in their traditional homelands; additionally, many of the above are targeted within their own larger ethnic communities. Further, I don’t recall passing by a church and not seeing a rainbow flag; I cannot say the same for other religious houses of worship except for synagogues which also tend to fly the flag.
  - mrtesthah 4y ago
    It does not logically follow that gaining a second enemy would necessarily reduce the threat from the first. I also don't see the connection between your personal anecdotal experience of churches (presumably you live in a major metropolitan area) and white christian nationalists. Are you trying to imply that white christian nationalists are LGBT-friendly? Are you familiar with their beliefs?
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > I mean sure, as long as you’re a white christian man, I'm not. Well, at least you got one out of three. People like you are annoying people like me, especially when you pretend that you are talking on behalf of me.