3 ms·

Terrorism has a specific meaning. All these are what one would call sabotage. It would be terrorism if the saboteurs disabled the substations in support of an

by mc32 4y ago

Terrorism has a specific meaning. All these are what one would call sabotage. It would be terrorism if the saboteurs disabled the substations in support of an attack terrorizing civilians. Example, they shoot up a substation so that police are unable to respond to a siege on some government agency or a hostage situation at a bank.

JauntyHatAngle 4y ago
You can absolutely sabotage as a terrorist though. They aren't mutually exclusive. Damaging property if the motives and outcome align with what we consider terrorism is terrorism. But the meaning of terrorism is rather vague, and broad. If I blow up a substation and it causes blackouts and chaos, that can be terrorism.
- mc32 4y ago
  I agree with all you said.
- luckylion 4y ago
  If you sink an oil tanker and a pollute large area for years or decades, that's terrorism because holy fuck that's scary. But what if you do it in a way that nobody knows it was intentional and don't tell anyone about it? You're absolutely right: blowing up substations can be terrorism. But you need someone claiming the attack and making demands.
LarryMullins 4y ago
The attack on infrastructure itself could constitute terrorism, if the infrastructure attack was intended to scare or intimidate the public to achieve some political objective. Wiktionary's definition of terrorism includes attacks against property: "The use of unlawful violence against people or property to achieve political objectives." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terrorism https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terrorism
- mc32 4y ago
  I don't completely agree with that definition. A bank robber may briefly instill terror to the people in the bank, but it's not an act of terror. However, if it's committed by a group (like the Hearst heir) then because it's in support of further activities, I would classify it as terrorism. Often, governments, (not just the US but in general) use the term in order to enlist more sympathy from disinterested civilians in order to add support for government response and also to curb sympathy for the group or individuals. So protesters in Belarus or China, etc, they get labeled terrorists.
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    > A bank robber may briefly instill terror to the people in the bank, but it's not an act of terror. Political motive is a key part of that definition. Simple greed isn't a political motive, but if somebody started robbing banks because they had an axe to grind with the federal reserve, I think that would probably qualify as terrorism.
    - mc32 4y ago
      I don't think political motive is sufficient. Turning off the lights does not by itself instill fear and terror --there are things individuals or groups could tack on that would, of course. For example OWS was political and caused some property damage [as well as euro climate activists throwing substances at artworks], but I would be loath to classify either terrorism. I guess the action in ATL regarding a police raining facility is domestic terrorism.
      - LarryMullins 4y ago
        Unlawful violence is the other part of that definition. Two components: unlawful violence and a political motive. Not either/or, terrorism requires both. > OWS was political and caused some property damage Marginal example. I think most of the property damage was incidental to what they were doing; camping in city parks. Insofar as the property damage was deliberate vandalism, it seems like marginal terrorism. To pick an similar example that seems a lot more clear; if the KKK throws a brick through the window of a business owned by a black person, that's obviously terrorism right? All in all I think wiktionary's definition is pretty good.
beebmam 4y ago
Doesn't have to target civilians. > Terrorism Definitions > International terrorism: Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups who are inspired by, or associated with, designated foreign terrorist organizations or nations (state-sponsored). > Domestic terrorism: Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences, such as those of a political, religious, social, racial, or environmental nature. Source: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism

by mc32 4y ago

JauntyHatAngle 4y ago

You can absolutely sabotage as a terrorist though. They aren't mutually exclusive. Damaging property if the motives and outcome align with what we consider terrorism is terrorism. But the meaning of terrorism is rather vague, and broad. If I blow up a substation and it causes blackouts and chaos, that can be terrorism.

mc32 4y ago
I agree with all you said.
luckylion 4y ago
If you sink an oil tanker and a pollute large area for years or decades, that's terrorism because holy fuck that's scary. But what if you do it in a way that nobody knows it was intentional and don't tell anyone about it? You're absolutely right: blowing up substations can be terrorism. But you need someone claiming the attack and making demands.

LarryMullins 4y ago

The attack on infrastructure itself could constitute terrorism, if the infrastructure attack was intended to scare or intimidate the public to achieve some political objective. Wiktionary's definition of terrorism includes attacks against property: "The use of unlawful violence against people or property to achieve political objectives." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terrorism https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terrorism

mc32 4y ago
I don't completely agree with that definition. A bank robber may briefly instill terror to the people in the bank, but it's not an act of terror. However, if it's committed by a group (like the Hearst heir) then because it's in support of further activities, I would classify it as terrorism. Often, governments, (not just the US but in general) use the term in order to enlist more sympathy from disinterested civilians in order to add support for government response and also to curb sympathy for the group or individuals. So protesters in Belarus or China, etc, they get labeled terrorists.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  > A bank robber may briefly instill terror to the people in the bank, but it's not an act of terror. Political motive is a key part of that definition. Simple greed isn't a political motive, but if somebody started robbing banks because they had an axe to grind with the federal reserve, I think that would probably qualify as terrorism.
  - mc32 4y ago
    I don't think political motive is sufficient. Turning off the lights does not by itself instill fear and terror --there are things individuals or groups could tack on that would, of course. For example OWS was political and caused some property damage [as well as euro climate activists throwing substances at artworks], but I would be loath to classify either terrorism. I guess the action in ATL regarding a police raining facility is domestic terrorism.
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      Unlawful violence is the other part of that definition. Two components: unlawful violence and a political motive. Not either/or, terrorism requires both. > OWS was political and caused some property damage Marginal example. I think most of the property damage was incidental to what they were doing; camping in city parks. Insofar as the property damage was deliberate vandalism, it seems like marginal terrorism. To pick an similar example that seems a lot more clear; if the KKK throws a brick through the window of a business owned by a black person, that's obviously terrorism right? All in all I think wiktionary's definition is pretty good.

beebmam 4y ago

Doesn't have to target civilians. > Terrorism Definitions > International terrorism: Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups who are inspired by, or associated with, designated foreign terrorist organizations or nations (state-sponsored). > Domestic terrorism: Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences, such as those of a political, religious, social, racial, or environmental nature. Source: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism