4 ms·

Some women do not seem to understand, or somehow forget, that they are a "protected class" in society. Men do not hit women. Men are polite to women. Men put wo

by enko 15y ago

Some women do not seem to understand, or somehow forget, that they are a "protected class" in society. Men do not hit women. Men are polite to women. Men put women first. We are all trained that, from an early age. You may agree or disagree, but that's the state of society at the moment. If you don't want to be subject to different treatment than a man, don't identify as a woman. I'm not really aware of any other solutions at the moment.

AndrewDucker 15y ago
The other solution is to change society, the first part of which is to identify the problem and make it public, which is what this article is part of.
- enko 15y ago
  Which problem? Previous problem: Women are prejudiced against because they are not men << begin 40-year positive discrimination campaign >> New problem: Women are treated with kid gloves in any "men's forum" they deign to enter I say again, which problem? Identify away because I am not seeing anything other than the natural outcome of a deliberate policy.
  - AndrewDucker 15y ago
    Those look like two facets of the same problem to me: "Women being treated differently".
    - dextorious 15y ago
      And where exactly is the "problem" part? Why shouldn't they? Because one woman protests? Tons of other women protest if you DO treat them differently. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation. Try treating women exactly like men and see how far you will go...
      - AndrewDucker 15y ago
        The problem is that you're making a decision about someone based on a single obviously visible facet of them, rather than based on _them_. If you treat "men" one way and "women" a different way, then that is a problem, because you're treating them like a homogenous block, rather than individuals.
        enko 15y ago
        I don't want to be snarky, but can you please not insult our intelligence? Of course we want to behave towards individuals based solely on their individual merits. We cannot, for various reasons, some of which are alluded to in the previous posts.
        AndrewDucker 15y ago
        I'm sorry, you've questioned my experience, sworn at me, and used patronising language, but now I'm insulting your intelligence because I didn't assume you had good intentions? It's great to know you want to treat women as individuals, but it's not actually clear what's stopping you, except for the fact that you have to keep your "hands off" and aren't allowed to act inappropriately.
        dextorious 15y ago
        """The problem is that you're making a decision about someone based on a single obviously visible facet of them, rather than based on _them_.""" And the problem is, again? Until I get to know _them_ (and that is something I rarely get to do, regarding the random people I respond to on HN comment threads) I can only make the decision based on whatever obviously visible facet of them I have. """If you treat "men" one way and "women" a different way, then that is a problem, because you're treating them like a homogenous block, rather than individuals.""" I don't treat people I don't know as individuals. It's an evolutionary thing, we progressed by matching patterns and assigning things to GENERAL categories. Treating things individually comes much later. Here's how Nietchze puts it in his"JOYFUL WISDOM" book: = = = = = Where has logic originated in men's heads? Undoubtedly out of the illogical, the domain of which must originally lave been immense. But numberless beings who reasoned otherwise than we do at present, perished; albeit that they may have come nearer to truth than we! Whoever, for example, could not discern the " like " often enough with regard to food, and with regard to animals dangerous to him, whoever, therefore, deduced too slowly, or was too circumspect in his deductions, had smaller probability of survival than he who in all similar cases immediately divined the equality. The preponderating inclination, however, to deal with the similar as if the equal — an illogical inclination, for there is nothing equal in itself — first created the whole basis of logic. It was just so (in order that the conception of substance should originate, this being indispensable to logic, although in the strictest sense nothing actual corresponds to it) that for a long period the changing process in things had to be overlooked, and remain unperceived ; the beings not seeing correctly had an advantage over those who saw everything "in flux." = = = = = See? It helps to generalize!
    - enko 15y ago
      So, have you ever worked in a modern mixed workplace? You bloody well treat women differently. Hands off matey, nothing "inappropriate". Like I said, they are a protected class, ignore this to your great sorrow. I know I sound cynical in these comments, but I'm not really. I'm just pissed off at commentors like Mz, who want to have their cake and eat it too. Most (highly intelligent) female friends of mine are well aware of the balance of power in our society, and tweak their behaviour accordingly, as do I.
      - AndrewDucker 15y ago
        I work in a modern mixed IT department. I'd say about 25% developers/analysts, taking a quick look around me. And are you saying that where you are it's ok to treat men "hands on" and "innappropriately"? Because frankly, if so I wouldn't want to work with you.
        enko 15y ago
        Yeah yeah, you are such a professional. Never touching a colleague. Never making a joke. Never presuming to try to start a friendship. Never making a comment on personal appearance. Etc, etc, etc. I suppose you'll never experience any female trouble either, at work or anywhere else.
zallen 15y ago
"Men do not hit women." Right. Except all those cases of domestic abuse, I mean. "Men are polite to women." Have you ever actually been a woman? Typically men ignore women, except attractive women, who they ogle or patronize. In stores, men get served first or, if it's a couple, people assume the man is the decision-maker and speak primarily to him. People assume that men lead any social interaction. This is readily observable even if you're a man. "Men put women first." Except when it comes to childrearing, domestic arrangements, wages and promotions, poverty-reduction programs, marketing, healthcare (there's viagra and procepia, but it was only two years ago they figured out the structure of the clitoris), and in the classroom where boys are still called on first and it is routinely assumed that girls can't do math or science. But otherwise, sure, you're spot-on. (Oh, except, not identifying as a woman. We try. Especially online, where random threats of violence and rape happen routinely in certain communities like gaming as soon as you check the "F" box, often from complete strangers. But are you really saying that an entire group of people should just not be who they are to receive equal treatment? Right.)
- gatlin 15y ago
  Thank you for writing this. I'm responding in lieu of a second upvote.
- enko 15y ago
  >> "Men do not hit women." > Right. Except all those cases of domestic abuse, I mean. Hm, perhaps my language was a little unclear. In this context, imagine instead of "men" that it reads "gentlemen". Gentlemen do not hit women. Gentlemen put women first. That was the meaning I was getting at, and that is what is taught by society. I know there are sociopaths who ignore these rules, that is a valid point.

by enko 15y ago

AndrewDucker 15y ago

The other solution is to change society, the first part of which is to identify the problem and make it public, which is what this article is part of.

enko 15y ago
Which problem? Previous problem: Women are prejudiced against because they are not men << begin 40-year positive discrimination campaign >> New problem: Women are treated with kid gloves in any "men's forum" they deign to enter I say again, which problem? Identify away because I am not seeing anything other than the natural outcome of a deliberate policy.
- AndrewDucker 15y ago
  Those look like two facets of the same problem to me: "Women being treated differently".
  - dextorious 15y ago
    And where exactly is the "problem" part? Why shouldn't they? Because one woman protests? Tons of other women protest if you DO treat them differently. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation. Try treating women exactly like men and see how far you will go...
    - AndrewDucker 15y ago
      The problem is that you're making a decision about someone based on a single obviously visible facet of them, rather than based on _them_. If you treat "men" one way and "women" a different way, then that is a problem, because you're treating them like a homogenous block, rather than individuals.
      - enko 15y ago
        I don't want to be snarky, but can you please not insult our intelligence? Of course we want to behave towards individuals based solely on their individual merits. We cannot, for various reasons, some of which are alluded to in the previous posts.
        AndrewDucker 15y ago
        I'm sorry, you've questioned my experience, sworn at me, and used patronising language, but now I'm insulting your intelligence because I didn't assume you had good intentions? It's great to know you want to treat women as individuals, but it's not actually clear what's stopping you, except for the fact that you have to keep your "hands off" and aren't allowed to act inappropriately.
      - dextorious 15y ago
        """The problem is that you're making a decision about someone based on a single obviously visible facet of them, rather than based on _them_.""" And the problem is, again? Until I get to know _them_ (and that is something I rarely get to do, regarding the random people I respond to on HN comment threads) I can only make the decision based on whatever obviously visible facet of them I have. """If you treat "men" one way and "women" a different way, then that is a problem, because you're treating them like a homogenous block, rather than individuals.""" I don't treat people I don't know as individuals. It's an evolutionary thing, we progressed by matching patterns and assigning things to GENERAL categories. Treating things individually comes much later. Here's how Nietchze puts it in his"JOYFUL WISDOM" book: = = = = = Where has logic originated in men's heads? Undoubtedly out of the illogical, the domain of which must originally lave been immense. But numberless beings who reasoned otherwise than we do at present, perished; albeit that they may have come nearer to truth than we! Whoever, for example, could not discern the " like " often enough with regard to food, and with regard to animals dangerous to him, whoever, therefore, deduced too slowly, or was too circumspect in his deductions, had smaller probability of survival than he who in all similar cases immediately divined the equality. The preponderating inclination, however, to deal with the similar as if the equal — an illogical inclination, for there is nothing equal in itself — first created the whole basis of logic. It was just so (in order that the conception of substance should originate, this being indispensable to logic, although in the strictest sense nothing actual corresponds to it) that for a long period the changing process in things had to be overlooked, and remain unperceived ; the beings not seeing correctly had an advantage over those who saw everything "in flux." = = = = = See? It helps to generalize!
  - enko 15y ago
    So, have you ever worked in a modern mixed workplace? You bloody well treat women differently. Hands off matey, nothing "inappropriate". Like I said, they are a protected class, ignore this to your great sorrow. I know I sound cynical in these comments, but I'm not really. I'm just pissed off at commentors like Mz, who want to have their cake and eat it too. Most (highly intelligent) female friends of mine are well aware of the balance of power in our society, and tweak their behaviour accordingly, as do I.
    - AndrewDucker 15y ago
      I work in a modern mixed IT department. I'd say about 25% developers/analysts, taking a quick look around me. And are you saying that where you are it's ok to treat men "hands on" and "innappropriately"? Because frankly, if so I wouldn't want to work with you.
      - enko 15y ago
        Yeah yeah, you are such a professional. Never touching a colleague. Never making a joke. Never presuming to try to start a friendship. Never making a comment on personal appearance. Etc, etc, etc. I suppose you'll never experience any female trouble either, at work or anywhere else.

zallen 15y ago

"Men do not hit women." Right. Except all those cases of domestic abuse, I mean. "Men are polite to women." Have you ever actually been a woman? Typically men ignore women, except attractive women, who they ogle or patronize. In stores, men get served first or, if it's a couple, people assume the man is the decision-maker and speak primarily to him. People assume that men lead any social interaction. This is readily observable even if you're a man. "Men put women first." Except when it comes to childrearing, domestic arrangements, wages and promotions, poverty-reduction programs, marketing, healthcare (there's viagra and procepia, but it was only two years ago they figured out the structure of the clitoris), and in the classroom where boys are still called on first and it is routinely assumed that girls can't do math or science. But otherwise, sure, you're spot-on. (Oh, except, not identifying as a woman. We try. Especially online, where random threats of violence and rape happen routinely in certain communities like gaming as soon as you check the "F" box, often from complete strangers. But are you really saying that an entire group of people should just not be who they are to receive equal treatment? Right.)

gatlin 15y ago
Thank you for writing this. I'm responding in lieu of a second upvote.
enko 15y ago
>> "Men do not hit women." > Right. Except all those cases of domestic abuse, I mean. Hm, perhaps my language was a little unclear. In this context, imagine instead of "men" that it reads "gentlemen". Gentlemen do not hit women. Gentlemen put women first. That was the meaning I was getting at, and that is what is taught by society. I know there are sociopaths who ignore these rules, that is a valid point.