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> Following a religion improves your daily actions, feels wonderful, and connects you to a worldwide community. These are better reasons than insisting it’s abs

by doix 4y ago

> Following a religion improves your daily actions, feels wonderful, and connects you to a worldwide community. These are better reasons than insisting it’s absolutely true. Religion terrifies me, I don't feel wonderful thinking about eternal existence in the afterlife. Even if there was some proof that the afterlife did exist, I would most likely pretend it doesn't exist. You can get a sense of community doing many other things. > Same with philosophies, nationalities, norms, and concepts like loyalty, destiny, and identity. None of these are true. But they are useful. I don't know what this means. How can nationalities not be true? Philosophies do not claim to be true, they are just a logically consistent framework. No idea how it applies to concepts either.

floppydiskette 4y ago
Nationalities are a social construct, a bit of a shared delusion we all believe in. If we all stopped believing in them at the same time, they would cease to exist. That’s how they can not be “true”. Whether or not it’s useful or relevant to think that way depends on the situation. And that doesn’t mean they don’t have real consequences. As for philosophies, he’s referring to living your life by any particular philosophy, whether or not it’s “objectively” the best way to live.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- doix 4y ago
  Edit: the definition I had for "nation" in my head was incorrect. My comment is based on an incorrect understanding, leaving it up since there are replies that won't make sense if I remove it. I find it very hard to make the mental leap between religion and nationalities. I think the correct thing to actually discuss is if "nations" are true. Nationality just means you belong to a nation, by definition. If we stopped believing in nations, people would still form groups. Groups would organise and govern, nations are reborn again. I think as long as humans are social creatures, nations are about as "true" as you can get. They are inevitable in my opinion. Religion on the other hand, if people stop believing in it, it ceases to exist. > As for philosophies, he’s referring to living your life by any particular philosophy, whether or not it’s “objectively” the best way to live. Okay, I misunderstood that part. I thought they were talking about the study of philosophy. I agree that living your life by a philosophy does not make it true. But I suspect most people that follow a particular philosophy would not claim it is "true", but maybe I'm in a bit of a bubble.
  - cratermoon 4y ago
    What nationality is someone born in Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia?
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Depenfs on the olace of birth, and especially in the case of Yugoslavia, his ancestry. The latter fought a couple a very nasty wars trying figure that one out. Those people are either Czech, Slovak, Serb, Slovenes, Croat... Rather easy to answer.
      - floppydiskette 4y ago
        What does it mean to be Czech or Slovak? At one point, those countries were combined into the nation of Czechoslovakia. Was a person born in Czechoslovakia Czech, Slovak, or Czechoslovakian? If we’re going to take ethnicity or language into account, then what does it mean to be American? Many of those Eastern European languages are more of a sliding scale than divided by country borders. Moldovan and Romanian are basically the same thing. I met someone on my travels from Italy who was Italian, but only spoke German, as they do in parts of Northern Italy.
        hef19898 4y ago
        Nationality is pretty easy, just look at someones passport. Ethnicity is much more difficult.
        cratermoon 4y ago
        Did nations exist before passports? What is I don't have a passport? If I hold a passport for a nation that no longer exists, what nationality am I?
        hef19898 4y ago
        Well, the idea of nation states isn't that old. Passport are pretty recent, in their current form at least. And a person can be nationless, in which case they would be eligible for a UN passport.
- alexvoda 4y ago
  The definition of true is a rabit hole and spelunking its depths is not especially productive. It is more productive to replace the word with what is actually meant. Is something part of objective material reality. Is something a valid logical inference. Is something an action which had the desired result even if the result was not caused, even indirectly, by the action itself.
Tomte 4y ago
> How can nationalities not be true? I've had a university course where Benedict Anderson's "Imagined Communities" was taught: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_Communities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_Communities It's been most interesting. I highly recommend it.
- redler 4y ago
  Sounds a lot like Vonnegut’s Granfalloon.
metacritic12 4y ago
> You can get a sense of community doing many other things. Do you have a strong sense of community yourself -- and what other things have you found most gives you community?
- oh_sigh 4y ago
  For me, the gay community. Which is actually filled with a bunch of people rejected by their religious community.
sambapa 4y ago
If eternal existence terrifies you then look into Buddhism

by doix 4y ago

floppydiskette 4y ago

Nationalities are a social construct, a bit of a shared delusion we all believe in. If we all stopped believing in them at the same time, they would cease to exist. That’s how they can not be “true”. Whether or not it’s useful or relevant to think that way depends on the situation. And that doesn’t mean they don’t have real consequences. As for philosophies, he’s referring to living your life by any particular philosophy, whether or not it’s “objectively” the best way to live.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
doix 4y ago
Edit: the definition I had for "nation" in my head was incorrect. My comment is based on an incorrect understanding, leaving it up since there are replies that won't make sense if I remove it. I find it very hard to make the mental leap between religion and nationalities. I think the correct thing to actually discuss is if "nations" are true. Nationality just means you belong to a nation, by definition. If we stopped believing in nations, people would still form groups. Groups would organise and govern, nations are reborn again. I think as long as humans are social creatures, nations are about as "true" as you can get. They are inevitable in my opinion. Religion on the other hand, if people stop believing in it, it ceases to exist. > As for philosophies, he’s referring to living your life by any particular philosophy, whether or not it’s “objectively” the best way to live. Okay, I misunderstood that part. I thought they were talking about the study of philosophy. I agree that living your life by a philosophy does not make it true. But I suspect most people that follow a particular philosophy would not claim it is "true", but maybe I'm in a bit of a bubble.
- cratermoon 4y ago
  What nationality is someone born in Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia?
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Depenfs on the olace of birth, and especially in the case of Yugoslavia, his ancestry. The latter fought a couple a very nasty wars trying figure that one out. Those people are either Czech, Slovak, Serb, Slovenes, Croat... Rather easy to answer.
    - floppydiskette 4y ago
      What does it mean to be Czech or Slovak? At one point, those countries were combined into the nation of Czechoslovakia. Was a person born in Czechoslovakia Czech, Slovak, or Czechoslovakian? If we’re going to take ethnicity or language into account, then what does it mean to be American? Many of those Eastern European languages are more of a sliding scale than divided by country borders. Moldovan and Romanian are basically the same thing. I met someone on my travels from Italy who was Italian, but only spoke German, as they do in parts of Northern Italy.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Nationality is pretty easy, just look at someones passport. Ethnicity is much more difficult.
        cratermoon 4y ago
        Did nations exist before passports? What is I don't have a passport? If I hold a passport for a nation that no longer exists, what nationality am I?
        hef19898 4y ago
        Well, the idea of nation states isn't that old. Passport are pretty recent, in their current form at least. And a person can be nationless, in which case they would be eligible for a UN passport.
alexvoda 4y ago
The definition of true is a rabit hole and spelunking its depths is not especially productive. It is more productive to replace the word with what is actually meant. Is something part of objective material reality. Is something a valid logical inference. Is something an action which had the desired result even if the result was not caused, even indirectly, by the action itself.

Tomte 4y ago

> How can nationalities not be true? I've had a university course where Benedict Anderson's "Imagined Communities" was taught: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_Communities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_Communities It's been most interesting. I highly recommend it.

redler 4y ago
Sounds a lot like Vonnegut’s Granfalloon.

metacritic12 4y ago

> You can get a sense of community doing many other things. Do you have a strong sense of community yourself -- and what other things have you found most gives you community?

oh_sigh 4y ago
For me, the gay community. Which is actually filled with a bunch of people rejected by their religious community.

sambapa 4y ago

If eternal existence terrifies you then look into Buddhism