11 ms·

I was fortunate to learn this from pointless internet flamewars early in my life. Understand why you're in an argument and what you hope to accomplish by being

by oddity 4y ago

I was fortunate to learn this from pointless internet flamewars early in my life. Understand why you're in an argument and what you hope to accomplish by being in an argument. On the internet, it is usually very clear that you will accomplish nothing except maybe introduce receptive onlookers to a new idea, so the choice to minimize engagement is easy. I think applying this has generally made me more successful outside of the Internet, too, by being more conscious about how I approach conflict. Unfortunately, in the less pseudonymous world where preconceptions and reputation have more weight, the advice also holds, but the calculus is a big mess. Arguments can have only downside risk, but you don't have the option to disengage.

Kamq 4y ago
> On the internet, it is usually very clear that you will accomplish nothing except maybe introduce receptive onlookers to a new idea, so the choice to minimize engagement is easy. I'm going to disagree here. I've learned quite a lot from internet arguments. Admittedly, the majority of it was from attempting to argue positions I don't hold. You're taking it as a given that the only goal of an argument is to convince someone, and if you can't do that, then there is no point. But there can be value in making an argument specifically in bettering your own understanding of a point. With all that said, I will admit that some random news site's comments probably aren't the best place to do that.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  GP seems to say this already. The thrust of their point is that the time spent engaging isn’t worth it for the person debating, not whether it does or doesn’t impact the perspectives on those that view the debate.
  - Kamq 4y ago
    > The thrust of their point is that the time spent engaging isn’t worth it for the person debating Yes, and this is my main point of disagreement with them. My point is that there is plenty of value if you want there to be.
- notacoward 4y ago
  > there can be value in making an argument specifically in bettering your own understanding of a point If you want someone to educate you, the polite thing to do is ask. This kind of "stealth learning" where you say things you don't believe, expecting to learn via corrections, is inconsiderate and inefficient. I know people who have lost practically all of their friends because they couldn't bring themselves to acknowledge anyone else's expertise in either the subject itself or how to explain it. Don't be that guy. ETA: Even if what you want is a spirited debate, mutual consent and respect matter. A voluntary debate can be a lot of fun for everyone, contrarian provocation out of the blue much less so.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    I'm okay with people trying out different viewpoints—I do think it's a good way to explore new ideas—but I'd prefer the post be prefaced with "to play devil's advocate" or something to that effect.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I think that's really depends on what you're trying to learn. If you want to learn about someone's position it may be better to ask them than play Devil's Advocate. If you want to learn about the devil's position, the other person won't be able to help you. As you mentioned, time, place, and consent are important. You see this a lot in forums dedicated to debate. What consent means in general forms like this one is a little bit more ambiguous. Some people are looking to debate and some people are looking to just talk.
    - smaudet 4y ago
      Or, if you just want get practice (internet) arguing, its always a good idea. OFC, the other people need to be interested in arguing. Random debate is a valuable skill, and I don't know that I 100% agree that "consent" is important. There's a difference between harassing someone and letting them know you don't agree (we call that discourse), if they're not interested in continuing the conversation a lot of people will just stop talking. Otherwise, you don't get to say things and then have some shield that nobody will disagree with you, putting it in the public forum itself is the only consent needed. The only major danger is when someone doesn't reply at all. The OP's article ignores the fact that argument is often not just about being right, but about winning the perception. I think it is probably better (with someone who is not being disingenuous or harassing) to state if you don't have time or interest to reply, rather than letting the other argument hang - - the last, simplest thing said usually sticks out in onlookers brains, not the 5 paragraphs of well (or not well) thought out response.
- oddity 4y ago
  You're not wrong. You can think of internet arguments as a method of developing a thought and collecting counterarguments in a real environment to refine it. The choice of forum affects the quality of the counterargument though, and developing a thought can be done with a crowd more likely to give constructive feedback. If some random website works for you, that's fine. My statement is more that if you're interested in external impact, exposing someone to a new idea should be treated as the most likely outcome, so assess your effort spent accordingly. I've gotten a lot of value out of reading the different sides of other people's arguments, but I know I personally wouldn't have wanted to spend time being part of it.
  - noirbot 4y ago
    I can't remember the exact origins of it, but I think it was a tweet that was essentially: No one will remember who won an argument on the internet, they'll just remember that everyone involved is the kind of person who gets in arguments on the internet. I'm not even sure that's really limited to just the internet either - outside of very niche cases, you don't win any argument, you just become known as someone who likes to argue, and thus you need to decide if this is a venue you want to become known as someone who argues about things. There's venues that may be good, wholesome, and useful, but it's been an axiom that's definitely stopped me from contributing to a lot of arguments.
  - robomartin 4y ago
    > I've gotten a lot of value out of reading the different sides of other people's arguments, but I know I personally wouldn't have wanted to spend time being part of it. The problem with discussions on the internet is that there's a lot of ignorance and ideology out there and a lack of interest in applying a modicum of thought, research and critical thinking. People know what they know because they know what they know, and that's the end of it. This can be incredibly frustrating to those of us who make an attempt to live in some kind of an objective realty, where arguments from reason and facts are considered and respected. On the internet, the earth can be flat and there is no amount of math and science you can deploy that will convince a certain audience otherwise. The only exception to this rule are narrowly focused professional discussion groups. HN fits this description ONLY when the topic at hand tends to be in the realm of specific engineering disciplines. In a wide range of other areas, including technical areas, discussions on HN can be just as dumb and pointless as almost anywhere else. I've been using online forums of various kinds of four decades. You could find good, bad and ugly on USENET and the same is true today in various forms. The only thing that has changed is that the size of the audience and the reach of the nonsense have expanded. Relevant: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/19/yale-researchers-how-highly-successful-people-argue.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/19/yale-researchers-how-highly-...
simondotau 4y ago
Like you I learned this early on. But I somehow manage to forget the lesson every time I engage on a significantly new platform. I had to re-learn it again on Twitter and on Hacker News. It’s weird because it makes no sense rationally, but there you go.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
allenu 4y ago
> Understand why you're in an argument and what you hope to accomplish by being in an argument. There's a spectrum here, but I've noticed that a lot of people like to debate things online because they're genuinely trying to understand the problem set, or want to play around with ideas. They're not looking to "argue" necessarily. However, on the other end, some people do interpret any disagreement as an argument and will then turn the discussion into one that they will try to "win". It can be frustrating if you're coming at it from a "discovery" perspective and the other person wants to fight, or you're coming at it from a fight perspective and the other one wants to discover. This happens in real life as well, but it's a little bit easier to communicate what your intent is based on your tone and expression.

by oddity 4y ago

Kamq 4y ago

> On the internet, it is usually very clear that you will accomplish nothing except maybe introduce receptive onlookers to a new idea, so the choice to minimize engagement is easy. I'm going to disagree here. I've learned quite a lot from internet arguments. Admittedly, the majority of it was from attempting to argue positions I don't hold. You're taking it as a given that the only goal of an argument is to convince someone, and if you can't do that, then there is no point. But there can be value in making an argument specifically in bettering your own understanding of a point. With all that said, I will admit that some random news site's comments probably aren't the best place to do that.

DiggyJohnson 4y ago
GP seems to say this already. The thrust of their point is that the time spent engaging isn’t worth it for the person debating, not whether it does or doesn’t impact the perspectives on those that view the debate.
- Kamq 4y ago
  > The thrust of their point is that the time spent engaging isn’t worth it for the person debating Yes, and this is my main point of disagreement with them. My point is that there is plenty of value if you want there to be.
notacoward 4y ago
> there can be value in making an argument specifically in bettering your own understanding of a point If you want someone to educate you, the polite thing to do is ask. This kind of "stealth learning" where you say things you don't believe, expecting to learn via corrections, is inconsiderate and inefficient. I know people who have lost practically all of their friends because they couldn't bring themselves to acknowledge anyone else's expertise in either the subject itself or how to explain it. Don't be that guy. ETA: Even if what you want is a spirited debate, mutual consent and respect matter. A voluntary debate can be a lot of fun for everyone, contrarian provocation out of the blue much less so.
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  I'm okay with people trying out different viewpoints—I do think it's a good way to explore new ideas—but I'd prefer the post be prefaced with "to play devil's advocate" or something to that effect.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  I think that's really depends on what you're trying to learn. If you want to learn about someone's position it may be better to ask them than play Devil's Advocate. If you want to learn about the devil's position, the other person won't be able to help you. As you mentioned, time, place, and consent are important. You see this a lot in forums dedicated to debate. What consent means in general forms like this one is a little bit more ambiguous. Some people are looking to debate and some people are looking to just talk.
  - smaudet 4y ago
    Or, if you just want get practice (internet) arguing, its always a good idea. OFC, the other people need to be interested in arguing. Random debate is a valuable skill, and I don't know that I 100% agree that "consent" is important. There's a difference between harassing someone and letting them know you don't agree (we call that discourse), if they're not interested in continuing the conversation a lot of people will just stop talking. Otherwise, you don't get to say things and then have some shield that nobody will disagree with you, putting it in the public forum itself is the only consent needed. The only major danger is when someone doesn't reply at all. The OP's article ignores the fact that argument is often not just about being right, but about winning the perception. I think it is probably better (with someone who is not being disingenuous or harassing) to state if you don't have time or interest to reply, rather than letting the other argument hang - - the last, simplest thing said usually sticks out in onlookers brains, not the 5 paragraphs of well (or not well) thought out response.
oddity 4y ago
You're not wrong. You can think of internet arguments as a method of developing a thought and collecting counterarguments in a real environment to refine it. The choice of forum affects the quality of the counterargument though, and developing a thought can be done with a crowd more likely to give constructive feedback. If some random website works for you, that's fine. My statement is more that if you're interested in external impact, exposing someone to a new idea should be treated as the most likely outcome, so assess your effort spent accordingly. I've gotten a lot of value out of reading the different sides of other people's arguments, but I know I personally wouldn't have wanted to spend time being part of it.
- noirbot 4y ago
  I can't remember the exact origins of it, but I think it was a tweet that was essentially: No one will remember who won an argument on the internet, they'll just remember that everyone involved is the kind of person who gets in arguments on the internet. I'm not even sure that's really limited to just the internet either - outside of very niche cases, you don't win any argument, you just become known as someone who likes to argue, and thus you need to decide if this is a venue you want to become known as someone who argues about things. There's venues that may be good, wholesome, and useful, but it's been an axiom that's definitely stopped me from contributing to a lot of arguments.
- robomartin 4y ago
  > I've gotten a lot of value out of reading the different sides of other people's arguments, but I know I personally wouldn't have wanted to spend time being part of it. The problem with discussions on the internet is that there's a lot of ignorance and ideology out there and a lack of interest in applying a modicum of thought, research and critical thinking. People know what they know because they know what they know, and that's the end of it. This can be incredibly frustrating to those of us who make an attempt to live in some kind of an objective realty, where arguments from reason and facts are considered and respected. On the internet, the earth can be flat and there is no amount of math and science you can deploy that will convince a certain audience otherwise. The only exception to this rule are narrowly focused professional discussion groups. HN fits this description ONLY when the topic at hand tends to be in the realm of specific engineering disciplines. In a wide range of other areas, including technical areas, discussions on HN can be just as dumb and pointless as almost anywhere else. I've been using online forums of various kinds of four decades. You could find good, bad and ugly on USENET and the same is true today in various forms. The only thing that has changed is that the size of the audience and the reach of the nonsense have expanded. Relevant: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/19/yale-researchers-how-highly-successful-people-argue.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/19/yale-researchers-how-highly-...

simondotau 4y ago

Like you I learned this early on. But I somehow manage to forget the lesson every time I engage on a significantly new platform. I had to re-learn it again on Twitter and on Hacker News. It’s weird because it makes no sense rationally, but there you go.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

allenu 4y ago

> Understand why you're in an argument and what you hope to accomplish by being in an argument. There's a spectrum here, but I've noticed that a lot of people like to debate things online because they're genuinely trying to understand the problem set, or want to play around with ideas. They're not looking to "argue" necessarily. However, on the other end, some people do interpret any disagreement as an argument and will then turn the discussion into one that they will try to "win". It can be frustrating if you're coming at it from a "discovery" perspective and the other person wants to fight, or you're coming at it from a fight perspective and the other one wants to discover. This happens in real life as well, but it's a little bit easier to communicate what your intent is based on your tone and expression.