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Plus, the longer they can keep 3rd parties locked out of repairs, the longer they have to retrain the entire industry with propaganda that dictates what should

Plus, the longer they can keep 3rd parties locked out of repairs, the longer they have to retrain the entire industry with propaganda that dictates what should be fixed vs replaced. What happens after a generation or two of the workforce is trained by industry groups that are approved by the companies that don't want us to be able to repair or control our devices? IMO, the lie about non-repair-ability becomes accepted as fact, the expertise from people that know it's a lie isn't passed on, and suddenly the lie becomes the truth because there's no one left that knows how to perform the repairs that were deemed unprofitable.

mindslight 4y ago
I feel like that ship sailed long ago (unfortunately), with the trend of replacing entire subassemblies rather than building devices/subassemblies to be field diagnosed and repaired. Semi-related rant: I recently bought a Haynes manual for a '15 Civic. I figured it would, at the very least, have thorough wiring diagrams and describe the physical layouts of the wiring harnesses. Nope - over half is just generic information about tools and general car repair. The "wiring diagram" is woefully incomplete - it shows one single reference to a "CAN Bus" off the ECU, rather than the 7 or so devices on one bus, and 10+ on the second bus. Luckily I managed to stumble upon a 15k-page OEMish service manual that details a lot of this stuff (via procedures, rather than easier-to-read diagrams, but at least its authoritative). I know car repair information has been obfuscated and proprietarized by manufacturers, but it looks like Haynes isn't even trying. Either at least document what's physically there, or just stop pretending to sell a repair manual. (I'm not opposed to going to the dealer if I can't figure it out. I've just heard too many stories of people having electrical/control issues, and the stealership goes on a wild goose chase replacing part after part. So I figured I'd take a crack at it first)
- bluGill 4y ago
  Haynes was always that way. Okay for basics like spark plugs, but not much else.. there are others, which are somewhat better. The OEM manuals are generally available and great.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    That's disappointing. I had thought I heard good things about them over the years, and finally had occasion to buy one (previous cars I'd managed to find service manuals online straight away). So much for the "complete teardown and rebuild."

mindslight 4y ago

I feel like that ship sailed long ago (unfortunately), with the trend of replacing entire subassemblies rather than building devices/subassemblies to be field diagnosed and repaired. Semi-related rant: I recently bought a Haynes manual for a '15 Civic. I figured it would, at the very least, have thorough wiring diagrams and describe the physical layouts of the wiring harnesses. Nope - over half is just generic information about tools and general car repair. The "wiring diagram" is woefully incomplete - it shows one single reference to a "CAN Bus" off the ECU, rather than the 7 or so devices on one bus, and 10+ on the second bus. Luckily I managed to stumble upon a 15k-page OEMish service manual that details a lot of this stuff (via procedures, rather than easier-to-read diagrams, but at least its authoritative). I know car repair information has been obfuscated and proprietarized by manufacturers, but it looks like Haynes isn't even trying. Either at least document what's physically there, or just stop pretending to sell a repair manual. (I'm not opposed to going to the dealer if I can't figure it out. I've just heard too many stories of people having electrical/control issues, and the stealership goes on a wild goose chase replacing part after part. So I figured I'd take a crack at it first)

bluGill 4y ago
Haynes was always that way. Okay for basics like spark plugs, but not much else.. there are others, which are somewhat better. The OEM manuals are generally available and great.
- mindslight 4y ago
  That's disappointing. I had thought I heard good things about them over the years, and finally had occasion to buy one (previous cars I'd managed to find service manuals online straight away). So much for the "complete teardown and rebuild."