3 ms·

Look at the the lowest point of energy demand. That's base load. How big is it relative to the peak of energy demand? Depends on the season, but it's usually 70

Look at the the lowest point of energy demand. That's base load. How big is it relative to the peak of energy demand? Depends on the season, but it's usually 70-80% of peak demand. So, the vast majority of energy demand is in fact base load. I'm really confused about why renewable proponents talk about base load all the time - it's really not relevant to decarbonization of the grid. Intermittency of wind and solar aren't just daily: you also have longer-term periods of cloud weather blocking solar and lower wind speed hampering wind power. Actually running a majority renewable grid requires either hydroelectricity, or fossil fuels. The majority of Germany's electricity comes from fossil fuels [1]. It's not a mostly renewable grid, occasionally supplemented by peaker plants. It's a majority fossil fuel grid supplemented by renewables. By comparison, here's France's electricity production [2]. One of these is a mostly decarbonized grid. The other is a primarily fossil fuel grid, supplemented by renewables here and there. > However, the world is also transitioning to Electric Vehicles, and most EV manufacturers are offering V2G (vehicle to grid) solutions, so millions of EVs can contribute a portion of their battery capacity to the grid in the future, and the grid can compensate them for their contribution. This is an idea that no sane grid operator would ever accept. First of all, most of these vehicles actually lose energy in cold weather [3]. And if people leave to go on vacation, then we have blackouts because our energy storage solution drove away for a week? No to mention, plenty of people drive their cars around during the day doing chores or work and charge them at night. Those people are going to be a net drain on the grid. > Lithium is not exactly rare or hard to extract, you can even extract lithium from saltwater, so this argument seems specious. But, various chemistries are being explored. The market demonstrates otherwise. At the end of the day, if there's a shortage of lithium and the price goes it up it doesn't really matter what people are writing on tech forums. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#/media/File:Germany's_electricity_generation_by_major_fuel,_energy_sources_and_share_of_electricity_generation_by_fuel,_energy_source,_from_2000_through_2017_(47958295396).png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#/media/File:... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_France#/media/File:France_Electricity_production_1981-2017_(EIA).png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_France#/media/File:F... 3. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34120237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34120237

coder543 4y ago
> Look at the the lowest point of energy demand. That's base load. How big is it relative to the peak of energy demand? Depends on the season, but it's usually 70-80% of peak demand. So, the vast majority of energy demand is in fact base load. I'm really confused about why renewable proponents talk about base load all the time - it's really not relevant to decarbonization of the grid. I think this is just a confusion of terminology. What "renewable proponents" are talking about is baseload power plants. To quote the Wikipedia article that you linked to: "Power plants that do not change their power output quickly, such as large coal or nuclear plants, are generally called baseload power plants." If you've been missing that key piece of terminology, I can see the source of the confusion. People just call this "base load" to be short, for various reasons. You can criticize this if you want to, but that is what is happening. > The majority of Germany's electricity comes from fossil fuels [1]. It's not a mostly renewable grid, occasionally supplemented by peaker plants. It's a majority fossil fuel grid supplemented by renewables. By comparison, here's France's electricity production [2]. One of these is a mostly decarbonized grid. The other is a primarily fossil fuel grid, supplemented by renewables here and there. This has nothing to do with my previous comment. I have no idea what point you're trying to get at. > This is an idea that no sane grid operator would ever accept. First of all, most of these vehicles actually lose energy in cold weather [3]. You're really confused about a lot of things in this part of the discussion. EVs have less range in winter because more of the energy is being used to heat the cabin, and that was done with resisitive heating until recently (more vehicles are starting to use heat pumps). The grid operator would not be insane, except from the point of view of a very traditionalist grid operator. The future is dynamic. > The market demonstrates otherwise. It really doesn't? The market demonstrates that demand has risen sharply, and it will take time for production to catch up. Every demand spike results in a "shortage".
- mbesto 4y ago
  > EVs have less range in winter because more of the energy is being used to heat the cabin, and that was done with resisitive heating until recently (more vehicles are starting to use heat pumps). I thought it was this PLUS the fact that lithium batteries degrade quicker in freezing temps? https://www.livescience.com/61334-batteries-die-cold-weather.html https://www.livescience.com/61334-batteries-die-cold-weather...

coder543 4y ago

> Look at the the lowest point of energy demand. That's base load. How big is it relative to the peak of energy demand? Depends on the season, but it's usually 70-80% of peak demand. So, the vast majority of energy demand is in fact base load. I'm really confused about why renewable proponents talk about base load all the time - it's really not relevant to decarbonization of the grid. I think this is just a confusion of terminology. What "renewable proponents" are talking about is baseload power plants. To quote the Wikipedia article that you linked to: "Power plants that do not change their power output quickly, such as large coal or nuclear plants, are generally called baseload power plants." If you've been missing that key piece of terminology, I can see the source of the confusion. People just call this "base load" to be short, for various reasons. You can criticize this if you want to, but that is what is happening. > The majority of Germany's electricity comes from fossil fuels [1]. It's not a mostly renewable grid, occasionally supplemented by peaker plants. It's a majority fossil fuel grid supplemented by renewables. By comparison, here's France's electricity production [2]. One of these is a mostly decarbonized grid. The other is a primarily fossil fuel grid, supplemented by renewables here and there. This has nothing to do with my previous comment. I have no idea what point you're trying to get at. > This is an idea that no sane grid operator would ever accept. First of all, most of these vehicles actually lose energy in cold weather [3]. You're really confused about a lot of things in this part of the discussion. EVs have less range in winter because more of the energy is being used to heat the cabin, and that was done with resisitive heating until recently (more vehicles are starting to use heat pumps). The grid operator would not be insane, except from the point of view of a very traditionalist grid operator. The future is dynamic. > The market demonstrates otherwise. It really doesn't? The market demonstrates that demand has risen sharply, and it will take time for production to catch up. Every demand spike results in a "shortage".

mbesto 4y ago
> EVs have less range in winter because more of the energy is being used to heat the cabin, and that was done with resisitive heating until recently (more vehicles are starting to use heat pumps). I thought it was this PLUS the fact that lithium batteries degrade quicker in freezing temps? https://www.livescience.com/61334-batteries-die-cold-weather.html https://www.livescience.com/61334-batteries-die-cold-weather...