5 ms·

>In academic research and in entrepreneurship, you need to multiply your effectiveness as a programmer, and since you (probably) won't be working with an entren

by x3c 15y ago

>In academic research and in entrepreneurship, you need to multiply your effectiveness as a programmer, and since you (probably) won't be working with an entrenched code base, you are free to use whatever language best suits the task at hand. I disagree. If you're a startup, you're better off using a more mainstream language. I'm from India and if I start to find a good Haskell or Scala programmer I'll be looking for a long time and I'll be paying him/her a lot for those skills. Being a startup, you start small and its tempting to start using the bleeding edge technologies, but you must do a cost-benefit analysis; coders for PHP and Java are much easier to find and since the supply is more, the cost of skills will be less. Bootstrapped startups should particularly be wary of using technologies that have a very small talent pool in their part of the world. Use new/rare technologies if the benefits of using them outweigh the hassle and expenses of maintaining and extending the team/codebase for it.

yuvipanda 15y ago
Infinetly Beta would disagree.
- x3c 15y ago
  I cant comment on the specific case for your startup but given the wide adoption of PHP/Java/Ruby/Python compared to Haskell/Scala, it comes to a simple eq. No. of programmers for the former > No. of programmers for the latter But as someone in the thread already pointed out, definition of 'good' programmer is also subjective and different in each of the languages, so that will fuzz the simplicity of the above equation. PS: I'm very impressed with tech community in Pune in general. Very vibrant, diverse and passionate.
  - yuvipanda 15y ago
    Number of programmers is often not proportionate to the number of good programmers. By your simple equation, you'd be hiring only Turbo C programmers :D But I do agree with you - if your startup is not primarily a technology one, then maybe it doesn't matter. Throw enough people at it and it might just work
schleyfox 15y ago
Is it really so hard to take existing talent and train them to use other languages? Especially in cases where the existing library and tooling ecosystems exist (e.g. anything based on the JVM) the actual language probably won't be a show stopper for the level of talent you need. If a new language takes a couple weeks to get up to speed in, so what? The bigger problem, IMO, is the existence of libraries and basic development tools like build systems and dependency management. I'm fairly pleased with how many of the newer languages that build on the JVM allow easy interop so that you can use the existing ecosystem when it makes sense.
- x3c 15y ago
  >Is it really so hard to take existing talent and train them to use other languages? This will go into the costs column, and the reasons you use that particular tech. stack will go into benefit column. Weights and values are fairly subjective for each of the rows in the two columns and is very case specific. What I wanted to point out was that there are a lot of factors to consider while choosing your tech stack, be it for academia, research, startup or enterprise. I disagree with this following statement: >, and since you (probably) won't be working with an entrenched code base, you are free to use whatever language best suits the task at hand. Size of the codebase is not the only criterion. (And to be fair to the author of this article, "task at hand" envelopes a lot of the other criteria). PS: I found a good debate between Ryan Allen[1] and Michael Wales[2] debating the criteria on which to choose PHP or Ruby, a lot of them can be translated to a general tech stack choice. I've submitted it to HN here[3] and direct link here [4]. [1]http://twitter.com/ryanfaceryan http://twitter.com/ryanfaceryan [2]http://twitter.com/walesmd http://twitter.com/walesmd [3]http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3446180 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3446180 [4]http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/general/language-war-php-vs-ruby-2/ http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/general/language-war-php-vs... Sorry, if the link was already posted on HN sometime in the past. Edit: Formatting
tomp 15y ago
> I'm from India and if I start to find a good Haskell or Scala programmer In general, if you need to find a good programmer for any language (Python, JavaScript, Java, ...), you will be searching for a long time. The only difference is that with Haskell, OCaml and other advanced languages, usually the first programmer you will find is already very good.
- jasim 15y ago
  However finding that first 'good' programmer is going to be harder for languages like Scala, Haskell etc. compared to finding the first good programmer on more popular languages
  - SomeOtherGuy 15y ago
    No it isn't, that's the point. It is easier to find any programmer. It is not easier to find a good programmer. 99% of java programmers are bad. 50% of scala programmers are bad. Finding the 1% of good java programmers is just as hard as finding the 50% of good scala programmers.
    - zukhan 15y ago
      "99% of java programmers are bad." Are you part of the 99%? It irks me when people make pompous statements like this.
      - SomeOtherGuy 15y ago
        I'm not a java programmer. Just to help you out for the future since you seem a bit confused: pomp·ous/ˈpämpəs/Adjective: Affectedly and irritatingly grand, solemn, or self-important: "a pompous ass".
angerman 15y ago
I disagree (again). If you are a technology focused startup, chances are you are looking for highly talented people for your core team. You usually don't want the average PHP or Java Joe; you want more! And those you are looking for are usually not afraid to learn learn yet another language, if they don't already know. On the other hand if you are not building a technology focused startup, but simply need some software as a vehicle to drive the main business, you are right to look at the cost-benefit analysis and choose a more mainstream language, for which you can find cheap and easily replaceable labor in your area. I'm not saying you can't get the job done in a mainstream language; but I postulate that the mindset and attitude towards code of a good Haskell or Scala programmer is vastly different from your less expensive PHP or Java programmers. Some want to push the limits of what's technologically possible and others just want their paycheck by the end of the month; they are in both camps; are they evenly distributed?

by x3c 15y ago

yuvipanda 15y ago

Infinetly Beta would disagree.

x3c 15y ago
I cant comment on the specific case for your startup but given the wide adoption of PHP/Java/Ruby/Python compared to Haskell/Scala, it comes to a simple eq. No. of programmers for the former > No. of programmers for the latter But as someone in the thread already pointed out, definition of 'good' programmer is also subjective and different in each of the languages, so that will fuzz the simplicity of the above equation. PS: I'm very impressed with tech community in Pune in general. Very vibrant, diverse and passionate.
- yuvipanda 15y ago
  Number of programmers is often not proportionate to the number of good programmers. By your simple equation, you'd be hiring only Turbo C programmers :D But I do agree with you - if your startup is not primarily a technology one, then maybe it doesn't matter. Throw enough people at it and it might just work

schleyfox 15y ago

Is it really so hard to take existing talent and train them to use other languages? Especially in cases where the existing library and tooling ecosystems exist (e.g. anything based on the JVM) the actual language probably won't be a show stopper for the level of talent you need. If a new language takes a couple weeks to get up to speed in, so what? The bigger problem, IMO, is the existence of libraries and basic development tools like build systems and dependency management. I'm fairly pleased with how many of the newer languages that build on the JVM allow easy interop so that you can use the existing ecosystem when it makes sense.

x3c 15y ago
>Is it really so hard to take existing talent and train them to use other languages? This will go into the costs column, and the reasons you use that particular tech. stack will go into benefit column. Weights and values are fairly subjective for each of the rows in the two columns and is very case specific. What I wanted to point out was that there are a lot of factors to consider while choosing your tech stack, be it for academia, research, startup or enterprise. I disagree with this following statement: >, and since you (probably) won't be working with an entrenched code base, you are free to use whatever language best suits the task at hand. Size of the codebase is not the only criterion. (And to be fair to the author of this article, "task at hand" envelopes a lot of the other criteria). PS: I found a good debate between Ryan Allen[1] and Michael Wales[2] debating the criteria on which to choose PHP or Ruby, a lot of them can be translated to a general tech stack choice. I've submitted it to HN here[3] and direct link here [4]. [1]http://twitter.com/ryanfaceryan http://twitter.com/ryanfaceryan [2]http://twitter.com/walesmd http://twitter.com/walesmd [3]http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3446180 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3446180 [4]http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/general/language-war-php-vs-ruby-2/ http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/general/language-war-php-vs... Sorry, if the link was already posted on HN sometime in the past. Edit: Formatting

tomp 15y ago

> I'm from India and if I start to find a good Haskell or Scala programmer In general, if you need to find a good programmer for any language (Python, JavaScript, Java, ...), you will be searching for a long time. The only difference is that with Haskell, OCaml and other advanced languages, usually the first programmer you will find is already very good.

jasim 15y ago
However finding that first 'good' programmer is going to be harder for languages like Scala, Haskell etc. compared to finding the first good programmer on more popular languages
- SomeOtherGuy 15y ago
  No it isn't, that's the point. It is easier to find any programmer. It is not easier to find a good programmer. 99% of java programmers are bad. 50% of scala programmers are bad. Finding the 1% of good java programmers is just as hard as finding the 50% of good scala programmers.
  - zukhan 15y ago
    "99% of java programmers are bad." Are you part of the 99%? It irks me when people make pompous statements like this.
    - SomeOtherGuy 15y ago
      I'm not a java programmer. Just to help you out for the future since you seem a bit confused: pomp·ous/ˈpämpəs/Adjective: Affectedly and irritatingly grand, solemn, or self-important: "a pompous ass".

angerman 15y ago

I disagree (again). If you are a technology focused startup, chances are you are looking for highly talented people for your core team. You usually don't want the average PHP or Java Joe; you want more! And those you are looking for are usually not afraid to learn learn yet another language, if they don't already know. On the other hand if you are not building a technology focused startup, but simply need some software as a vehicle to drive the main business, you are right to look at the cost-benefit analysis and choose a more mainstream language, for which you can find cheap and easily replaceable labor in your area. I'm not saying you can't get the job done in a mainstream language; but I postulate that the mindset and attitude towards code of a good Haskell or Scala programmer is vastly different from your less expensive PHP or Java programmers. Some want to push the limits of what's technologically possible and others just want their paycheck by the end of the month; they are in both camps; are they evenly distributed?