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> A lot of the time, the jobs (ie: iPhone assembly, AI related) are highly sought after This description alsp applies to mining toxic substances by hand and hi

> A lot of the time, the jobs (ie: iPhone assembly, AI related) are highly sought after This description alsp applies to mining toxic substances by hand and high-end prostitution. The artisan cobalt-mining by hand is relatively popular, and kills you withing 10 years. It is not difficult to explot desperate people. I dont think we should be whitewashing it

danielmarkbruce 4y ago
The woman who started Sama (mentioned in the article) explicitly started the company to help people in those countries. Her entire life appears to have been directed toward helping people in Africa, she had a history of it. She wasn't there to exploit people.
- colpabar 4y ago
  But it is exploitation though, right? If a bunch of people in a western company say "well, we could just hire people in africa because that would significantly reduce our costs," isn't that an exploitation of cheap labor in africa?
  - danielmarkbruce 4y ago
    I guess it depends on your definition of "exploit". If OpenAI had to pay more, they would have gone with another option. It's challenging to work across time zones, across cultures, across language barriers. Working with folks in Reno, NV or somewhere in the southern states of the US would have been the choice for OpenAI at a much higher price. It's a competitive world. On the surface the Sama founder knew that and realized the options were higher wages for these folks in Africa, or none. The choice of even higher wasn't actually on the table.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      > If OpenAI had to pay more, they would have gone with another option... Its a competitive world. In 2000~s rating agencies rated subprime mortgages as AAA-bonds, causing the global financial crisis. If they rated the bonds as junk, the banks would go to another rating agency. Its a competitive world. Therefore defrauding all of us was the right thing to do? Just because the problem is inherent in the system and you individually can't change it, does not mean you cannot acknowledge the system's fault's.
      - danielmarkbruce 4y ago
        That's a clumsy analogy. Issuers paying for ratings is and agreed problem (the ratings agencies, issuers, investors, regulators agree it's a problem) and only happens because they can't make another model work. Competition driving costs down is viewed by many as a good thing. Many people view the higher wages the folks in this case got v their other opportunities as an opportunity, not as them being exploited. Capitalism is a system which some might not agree with, but pretending it's an obvious problem is wrong. Pretending low prices is an obvious problem is wrong. Many countries have explicitly chosen a capitalist system (competitive, market model where costs and prices are driven down) and have legislation and agencies devoted to protecting the system. Those countries aren't run by dictators.
  - jeremyjh 4y ago
    Is it exploitation to buy things from poor people?
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      Is it exploitation to buy a kidney from a homeless man for $500?
    - the_af 4y ago
      It can be, if you're taking advantage of them being poor in order to pay them way less than you would pay others.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    All business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. The only question is whether that exploitation is within tolerable limits.
    - yesenadam 4y ago
      > All business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. Where did you learn that? I don't think it's at all true. It seems maybe you have a no-true-scotsman definition of 'exploited', so that no evidence against your claim would change your mind. Picture a baker, who makes bread for people, who get bread, the baker gets money. Where is the necessary exploitation? I can't imagine where your confidence - "no exceptions" comes from. There are no win-win exchanges in the world, and none even possible? I'm not a huge fan of capitalism but that seems absurd.
      - Dalewyn 4y ago
        The baker is exploiting his customers' need/want for bread. The customers are exploiting the baker's need/want for money. Another way to describe business is that all business is about ripping someone off without pissing them off (and ideally making them happy). Middlemen who make their profit off margins are the most obvious example, but as I said this applies to all forms of business. I reiterate: All business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.
        yesenadam 4y ago
        I think you are using the word "exploit" in a different way than it is usually used, leading most people to misunderstand you. Or as a sibling comment suggests, the word has two meanings, and your argument uses equivocation (two different meanings in two different places) to achieve an apparently thick, substantial conclusion out of nothing.
        Dalewyn 4y ago
        Let me rephrase it using simpler language, then: All business is about taking advantage of someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. The baker is taking advantage of his customers' need/want for bread. The customers are taking advantage of the baker's need/want for money.
  - credit_guy 4y ago
    It would be much worse if they paid way above the local wages. It would trigger corruption. You'd could up with a black market in applications for the jobs, or protection racket, or highly paid leaks of the job interview problem sets, imagination has no limit. You can say it's OpenAI's duty to make sure all these things don't happen. But they are not there to police the local society. They are there to run their own business. They don't have the competency to make sure corruption does not happen.
  - atlantic 4y ago
    No, it's use of cheap labor in Africa.
- boeingUH60 4y ago
  You mean the same Sama that charged OpenAI $12.50 per hour for a contract and paid their African contractors $2 or less an hour? https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/ https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/
  - metadat 4y ago
    Discussed 2 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34426421 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34426421 (570 comments) (Warning: Shitshow)
  - danielmarkbruce 4y ago
    Time... aren't exactly being truthful. They constantly refer to "take-home", rather than pre-tax. The all in cost for a person includes pre-tax wages, often taxes on top of that, desks, computers, managers, electricity, office space, benefits and so on. Common sense suggests they are likely making 30% or so margins. If it were much more than that a competitor would eat their lunch. Look at the publicly listed services companies like DXC, Wipro, Accenture - margins are 20-30%.
bumby 4y ago
I think your example explains why the article is a potentially gray area of exploitation. I think it's clear exploitation when you offer someone employment that adversely impacts their rights. So artisan cobalt-mining is exploitative, because of it's health effects, would go against the UN's definition of "the right to work in just and favourable conditions"[1]. However, I'm not sure what, if any, rights are being compromised by the topic in the article. Maybe there's a case that it's unjust because of the asymmetry in the value created and payment. If there are some rights abuses, then it becomes a clearly exploitative endeavor. [1] https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights
hungryforcodes 4y ago
Living in Asia, I agree with the OP and find your total switch of topics in order to gain status points on HN gross. People in Asia desire good factory jobs manufacturing iPhone and what not. What the hell is wrong with that? Why you switch this to mining cobalt by hand is totally dumb. Also where are your sources? Mining cobalt by hand? Any mining operation in Asia will use the latest tools available. You think people here are running around in huts, scavenging cobalt and other precious metals from computer motherboards discarded in the year 1998? Get with it!

danielmarkbruce 4y ago

The woman who started Sama (mentioned in the article) explicitly started the company to help people in those countries. Her entire life appears to have been directed toward helping people in Africa, she had a history of it. She wasn't there to exploit people.

colpabar 4y ago
But it is exploitation though, right? If a bunch of people in a western company say "well, we could just hire people in africa because that would significantly reduce our costs," isn't that an exploitation of cheap labor in africa?
- danielmarkbruce 4y ago
  I guess it depends on your definition of "exploit". If OpenAI had to pay more, they would have gone with another option. It's challenging to work across time zones, across cultures, across language barriers. Working with folks in Reno, NV or somewhere in the southern states of the US would have been the choice for OpenAI at a much higher price. It's a competitive world. On the surface the Sama founder knew that and realized the options were higher wages for these folks in Africa, or none. The choice of even higher wasn't actually on the table.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > If OpenAI had to pay more, they would have gone with another option... Its a competitive world. In 2000~s rating agencies rated subprime mortgages as AAA-bonds, causing the global financial crisis. If they rated the bonds as junk, the banks would go to another rating agency. Its a competitive world. Therefore defrauding all of us was the right thing to do? Just because the problem is inherent in the system and you individually can't change it, does not mean you cannot acknowledge the system's fault's.
    - danielmarkbruce 4y ago
      That's a clumsy analogy. Issuers paying for ratings is and agreed problem (the ratings agencies, issuers, investors, regulators agree it's a problem) and only happens because they can't make another model work. Competition driving costs down is viewed by many as a good thing. Many people view the higher wages the folks in this case got v their other opportunities as an opportunity, not as them being exploited. Capitalism is a system which some might not agree with, but pretending it's an obvious problem is wrong. Pretending low prices is an obvious problem is wrong. Many countries have explicitly chosen a capitalist system (competitive, market model where costs and prices are driven down) and have legislation and agencies devoted to protecting the system. Those countries aren't run by dictators.
- jeremyjh 4y ago
  Is it exploitation to buy things from poor people?
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    Is it exploitation to buy a kidney from a homeless man for $500?
  - the_af 4y ago
    It can be, if you're taking advantage of them being poor in order to pay them way less than you would pay others.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  All business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. The only question is whether that exploitation is within tolerable limits.
  - yesenadam 4y ago
    > All business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. Where did you learn that? I don't think it's at all true. It seems maybe you have a no-true-scotsman definition of 'exploited', so that no evidence against your claim would change your mind. Picture a baker, who makes bread for people, who get bread, the baker gets money. Where is the necessary exploitation? I can't imagine where your confidence - "no exceptions" comes from. There are no win-win exchanges in the world, and none even possible? I'm not a huge fan of capitalism but that seems absurd.
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      The baker is exploiting his customers' need/want for bread. The customers are exploiting the baker's need/want for money. Another way to describe business is that all business is about ripping someone off without pissing them off (and ideally making them happy). Middlemen who make their profit off margins are the most obvious example, but as I said this applies to all forms of business. I reiterate: All business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.
      - yesenadam 4y ago
        I think you are using the word "exploit" in a different way than it is usually used, leading most people to misunderstand you. Or as a sibling comment suggests, the word has two meanings, and your argument uses equivocation (two different meanings in two different places) to achieve an apparently thick, substantial conclusion out of nothing.
        Dalewyn 4y ago
        Let me rephrase it using simpler language, then: All business is about taking advantage of someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. The baker is taking advantage of his customers' need/want for bread. The customers are taking advantage of the baker's need/want for money.
- credit_guy 4y ago
  It would be much worse if they paid way above the local wages. It would trigger corruption. You'd could up with a black market in applications for the jobs, or protection racket, or highly paid leaks of the job interview problem sets, imagination has no limit. You can say it's OpenAI's duty to make sure all these things don't happen. But they are not there to police the local society. They are there to run their own business. They don't have the competency to make sure corruption does not happen.
- atlantic 4y ago
  No, it's use of cheap labor in Africa.
boeingUH60 4y ago
You mean the same Sama that charged OpenAI $12.50 per hour for a contract and paid their African contractors $2 or less an hour? https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/ https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/
- metadat 4y ago
  Discussed 2 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34426421 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34426421 (570 comments) (Warning: Shitshow)
- danielmarkbruce 4y ago
  Time... aren't exactly being truthful. They constantly refer to "take-home", rather than pre-tax. The all in cost for a person includes pre-tax wages, often taxes on top of that, desks, computers, managers, electricity, office space, benefits and so on. Common sense suggests they are likely making 30% or so margins. If it were much more than that a competitor would eat their lunch. Look at the publicly listed services companies like DXC, Wipro, Accenture - margins are 20-30%.

bumby 4y ago

I think your example explains why the article is a potentially gray area of exploitation. I think it's clear exploitation when you offer someone employment that adversely impacts their rights. So artisan cobalt-mining is exploitative, because of it's health effects, would go against the UN's definition of "the right to work in just and favourable conditions"[1]. However, I'm not sure what, if any, rights are being compromised by the topic in the article. Maybe there's a case that it's unjust because of the asymmetry in the value created and payment. If there are some rights abuses, then it becomes a clearly exploitative endeavor. [1] https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights

hungryforcodes 4y ago

Living in Asia, I agree with the OP and find your total switch of topics in order to gain status points on HN gross. People in Asia desire good factory jobs manufacturing iPhone and what not. What the hell is wrong with that? Why you switch this to mining cobalt by hand is totally dumb. Also where are your sources? Mining cobalt by hand? Any mining operation in Asia will use the latest tools available. You think people here are running around in huts, scavenging cobalt and other precious metals from computer motherboards discarded in the year 1998? Get with it!