8 ms·

AFAIK, slaughterhouses don't use CO2 (carbon dioxide) - they use CO (carbon monoxide). The effect is identical to nitrogen, and doesn't trigger the physiologica

AFAIK, slaughterhouses don't use CO2 (carbon dioxide) - they use CO (carbon monoxide). The effect is identical to nitrogen, and doesn't trigger the physiological suffocation response.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
Sounds like this one is different. > We have invested in research to understand which techniques cause the least pain and stress to the animals and to their handlers. For pigs weighing less than 65 pounds, we use either carbon dioxide (CO2), which causes painless loss of consciousness and death, or a device called a nonpenetrating captive bolt gun, which administers a controlled blow to the head without breaking the skin, instantaneously rendering the animal insensible and causing a quick death. For pigs larger than 65 pounds, we use a penetrating captive bolt gun that fires a retractable metal bolt into the brain, resulting in insensibility and death. https://www.smithfieldfoods.com/animal-care https://www.smithfieldfoods.com/animal-care (near the bottom is a section labelled "Humane Euthanasia and Slaughter")
- Ancapistani 4y ago
  Surely that's a mistake - if not, it's a huge problem. I'm going to reach out to them and ask for clarification, because that statement is entirely inconsistent with reality.
  - Ancapistani 4y ago
    Hmm. I'm doing some digging, and apparently CO2 is used, at least in some context, for a lot of large processors. Here's an example of a product advertising it: https://www.frontmatec.com/en/pork-solutions/unclean-line/stunning/co2-stunning-system# https://www.frontmatec.com/en/pork-solutions/unclean-line/st... Mea culpa. I'll do a bit more digging first, to make sure I understand how it's being used. Just putting an animal into a chamber with a concentrated CO2 atmosphere would be identical to putting a bag over their head - obviously inhumane. Logically, that doesn't make sense to me. If nothing else, the animals would struggle and be very loud, which would panic the rest of the queue. I'll follow up once I know more.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
      "Painless" is subjective enough[0] that someone who genuinely doesn't care says "good enough" despite much pain and suffering. Makes me wonder about relative costs of these substances. Point being, I believe that you are correct and that it's entirely possible the relevant decision makers simply don't care or, worse, recognize that they are being dishonest and don't care about that. [0] Unless you can completely eliminate pain it's not strictly painless. Once you allow interpretation, you'll see questionable interpretations.
barbazoo 4y ago
> AFAIK, slaughterhouses don't use CO2 (carbon dioxide) - they use CO (carbon monoxide). The effect is identical to nitrogen, and doesn't trigger the physiological suffocation response. Have you watched the video in the article of the pigs squealing fighting for their life?
- Ancapistani 4y ago
  I've worked in a meat processing operation, including actively participating in slaughtering. See my other post, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34458667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34458667
  - taylodl 4y ago
    Do the pigs act stressed? Because I know people who work in research labs where mice are euthanized with CO2 and they say the mice don't appear to be stressed at all.
    - Ancapistani 4y ago
      I'd say the answer to that is: "sometimes". I've raised both pigs and cattle in the past, and pigs are definitely the more intelligent of the two. They're much more likely to be agitated by a rapid change of environment. Both are herd animals, so the agitation of one tends to agitate the others. In the context of a slaughterhouse, the biggest things that should be done to reduce agitation is to reduce their exposure to unfamiliar sights and sounds, give them time to adjust to their surroundings without being disturbed, limit the duration of disruptions, and keep them in smaller groups. In my experience in the situation I described in my top-level post, some pigs definitely knew that something bad was happening when they were let in to the kill room. Completely subjectively, I'd judge that maybe 10-20% of them acted like they felt threatened at that moment. In that particular operation, we'd slaughter no more than ~50 pigs at a time - enough to develop an efficient process and for the workers to be proficient with it, but not enough to justify an expensive mechanical system optimized for throughput. The person responsible for killing the animal had probably done so thousands of times in the past. It took less than fifteen seconds from the time the pig entered the room to the time it lost consciousness. For what it's worth, I never saw an instance of the slaughtering method failing on the first try, but there were arrangements in place in the event that it did. A second bolt gun was kept armed and within reach in case the one in use failed. Given that this was a small "family" operation, there was also a .45 handgun a few feet away that could be used in an emergency if there were no other option to end an animal's suffering. I was in my mid-teens when I worked the floor there, and the training was short but effective. For the first half dozen or so that I killed, a more experienced person was there overseeing, and was ready to step in if necessary. I was given the opportunity to "practice" on previously-slaughtered animals so I knew exactly where to place the gun, how loud it was going to be, etc., so by the time I was in the position to do it for real I had no doubts about what to do and could do it quickly. Finally, I'll add that agitation - or "stress", or "panic", or whatever you want to call it - is a financial concern as well as a moral one. An agitated animal is likely to injure themselves before being slaughtered, which reduces meat quality and yield. Large companies are definitely optimizing to reduce that. My concern is that they're optimizing the process to maximize yield to the detriment of animal welfare. To be fair, I don't know if that's the case. I've not worked in a larger facility. I live in an area with a ton of pork and poultry processing facilities. Given that my assumptions around the slaughter methods were shown in this thread to be incorrect, I think I'll see if I can't get access to one to tour their operations and see for myself.
upon_drumhead 4y ago
The manufacture's website says CO2 https://marel.com/en/products/co2-gas-stunning-system https://marel.com/en/products/co2-gas-stunning-system
taylodl 4y ago
They use C02. Here's what gets me - they also use CO2 for euthanizing lab mice and I know people who work in labs where mice are euthanized in this manner and they say the mice never act stressed. Does CO2 affect pigs and mice differently? Or is this a one-off being leaked to make it appear that all pigs are stressed when euthanized with CO2? I really don't know and I don't know anyone who works in a slaughterhouse.
- cm2187 4y ago
  The problem is that the pigs look pretty stressed before even entering the chamber, so I am not sure how one can tell that this is the effect of the gas or just that they have been pushed into a black room and have no idea what is happening to them.
- Ancapistani 4y ago
  It looks like it's somewhat unclear. Here's the first reference I've found, which appears to be reasonably trustworthy at first glance. Note that it's very much from the perspective of industrial farming. https://www.grandin.com/humane/meatfocus7-92.html https://www.grandin.com/humane/meatfocus7-92.html Basically, there are studies showing that pigs die a suffocating death with CO2, and there are studies showing that they don't even know it's happening. Both could be true, if there are genetic differences that impact the suffocation response. According to the article, those same differences seem to be present in humans as well, when exposed to high (but non-fatal) concentrations of CO2.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  This page suggests that rodents exposed to gradually increasing CO2 concentrations die painlessly because: > "[...] analgesia is induced at approximately 7.5%, and anesthesia is induced at 30%, with death due to nervous system depression occurring with prolonged concentrations of 30% and higher." https://rsawa.research.ucla.edu/arc/euthanasia-rodent/ https://rsawa.research.ucla.edu/arc/euthanasia-rodent/ Seems dubious to me, since even very low concentrations of CO2 can make humans feel very uncomfortable (the "stuffy room" feeling, where getting fresh air starts to be the only thing you can focus on.) It's possible that rodents, being smaller, go through these stages of suffocation faster so their suffering is less apparent to people. Or maybe lab workers are telling "white lies" because they think the ends justify the means but they're not sure the rest of the public will see it that way.

AFAIK, slaughterhouses don't use CO2 (carbon dioxide) - they use CO (carbon monoxide). The effect is identical to nitrogen, and doesn't trigger the physiological suffocation response.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago

Sounds like this one is different. > We have invested in research to understand which techniques cause the least pain and stress to the animals and to their handlers. For pigs weighing less than 65 pounds, we use either carbon dioxide (CO2), which causes painless loss of consciousness and death, or a device called a nonpenetrating captive bolt gun, which administers a controlled blow to the head without breaking the skin, instantaneously rendering the animal insensible and causing a quick death. For pigs larger than 65 pounds, we use a penetrating captive bolt gun that fires a retractable metal bolt into the brain, resulting in insensibility and death. https://www.smithfieldfoods.com/animal-care https://www.smithfieldfoods.com/animal-care (near the bottom is a section labelled "Humane Euthanasia and Slaughter")

Ancapistani 4y ago
Surely that's a mistake - if not, it's a huge problem. I'm going to reach out to them and ask for clarification, because that statement is entirely inconsistent with reality.
- Ancapistani 4y ago
  Hmm. I'm doing some digging, and apparently CO2 is used, at least in some context, for a lot of large processors. Here's an example of a product advertising it: https://www.frontmatec.com/en/pork-solutions/unclean-line/stunning/co2-stunning-system# https://www.frontmatec.com/en/pork-solutions/unclean-line/st... Mea culpa. I'll do a bit more digging first, to make sure I understand how it's being used. Just putting an animal into a chamber with a concentrated CO2 atmosphere would be identical to putting a bag over their head - obviously inhumane. Logically, that doesn't make sense to me. If nothing else, the animals would struggle and be very loud, which would panic the rest of the queue. I'll follow up once I know more.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
    "Painless" is subjective enough[0] that someone who genuinely doesn't care says "good enough" despite much pain and suffering. Makes me wonder about relative costs of these substances. Point being, I believe that you are correct and that it's entirely possible the relevant decision makers simply don't care or, worse, recognize that they are being dishonest and don't care about that. [0] Unless you can completely eliminate pain it's not strictly painless. Once you allow interpretation, you'll see questionable interpretations.

barbazoo 4y ago

> AFAIK, slaughterhouses don't use CO2 (carbon dioxide) - they use CO (carbon monoxide). The effect is identical to nitrogen, and doesn't trigger the physiological suffocation response. Have you watched the video in the article of the pigs squealing fighting for their life?

Ancapistani 4y ago
I've worked in a meat processing operation, including actively participating in slaughtering. See my other post, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34458667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34458667
- taylodl 4y ago
  Do the pigs act stressed? Because I know people who work in research labs where mice are euthanized with CO2 and they say the mice don't appear to be stressed at all.
  - Ancapistani 4y ago
    I'd say the answer to that is: "sometimes". I've raised both pigs and cattle in the past, and pigs are definitely the more intelligent of the two. They're much more likely to be agitated by a rapid change of environment. Both are herd animals, so the agitation of one tends to agitate the others. In the context of a slaughterhouse, the biggest things that should be done to reduce agitation is to reduce their exposure to unfamiliar sights and sounds, give them time to adjust to their surroundings without being disturbed, limit the duration of disruptions, and keep them in smaller groups. In my experience in the situation I described in my top-level post, some pigs definitely knew that something bad was happening when they were let in to the kill room. Completely subjectively, I'd judge that maybe 10-20% of them acted like they felt threatened at that moment. In that particular operation, we'd slaughter no more than ~50 pigs at a time - enough to develop an efficient process and for the workers to be proficient with it, but not enough to justify an expensive mechanical system optimized for throughput. The person responsible for killing the animal had probably done so thousands of times in the past. It took less than fifteen seconds from the time the pig entered the room to the time it lost consciousness. For what it's worth, I never saw an instance of the slaughtering method failing on the first try, but there were arrangements in place in the event that it did. A second bolt gun was kept armed and within reach in case the one in use failed. Given that this was a small "family" operation, there was also a .45 handgun a few feet away that could be used in an emergency if there were no other option to end an animal's suffering. I was in my mid-teens when I worked the floor there, and the training was short but effective. For the first half dozen or so that I killed, a more experienced person was there overseeing, and was ready to step in if necessary. I was given the opportunity to "practice" on previously-slaughtered animals so I knew exactly where to place the gun, how loud it was going to be, etc., so by the time I was in the position to do it for real I had no doubts about what to do and could do it quickly. Finally, I'll add that agitation - or "stress", or "panic", or whatever you want to call it - is a financial concern as well as a moral one. An agitated animal is likely to injure themselves before being slaughtered, which reduces meat quality and yield. Large companies are definitely optimizing to reduce that. My concern is that they're optimizing the process to maximize yield to the detriment of animal welfare. To be fair, I don't know if that's the case. I've not worked in a larger facility. I live in an area with a ton of pork and poultry processing facilities. Given that my assumptions around the slaughter methods were shown in this thread to be incorrect, I think I'll see if I can't get access to one to tour their operations and see for myself.

upon_drumhead 4y ago

The manufacture's website says CO2 https://marel.com/en/products/co2-gas-stunning-system https://marel.com/en/products/co2-gas-stunning-system

taylodl 4y ago

They use C02. Here's what gets me - they also use CO2 for euthanizing lab mice and I know people who work in labs where mice are euthanized in this manner and they say the mice never act stressed. Does CO2 affect pigs and mice differently? Or is this a one-off being leaked to make it appear that all pigs are stressed when euthanized with CO2? I really don't know and I don't know anyone who works in a slaughterhouse.

cm2187 4y ago
The problem is that the pigs look pretty stressed before even entering the chamber, so I am not sure how one can tell that this is the effect of the gas or just that they have been pushed into a black room and have no idea what is happening to them.
Ancapistani 4y ago
It looks like it's somewhat unclear. Here's the first reference I've found, which appears to be reasonably trustworthy at first glance. Note that it's very much from the perspective of industrial farming. https://www.grandin.com/humane/meatfocus7-92.html https://www.grandin.com/humane/meatfocus7-92.html Basically, there are studies showing that pigs die a suffocating death with CO2, and there are studies showing that they don't even know it's happening. Both could be true, if there are genetic differences that impact the suffocation response. According to the article, those same differences seem to be present in humans as well, when exposed to high (but non-fatal) concentrations of CO2.
LarryMullins 4y ago
This page suggests that rodents exposed to gradually increasing CO2 concentrations die painlessly because: > "[...] analgesia is induced at approximately 7.5%, and anesthesia is induced at 30%, with death due to nervous system depression occurring with prolonged concentrations of 30% and higher." https://rsawa.research.ucla.edu/arc/euthanasia-rodent/ https://rsawa.research.ucla.edu/arc/euthanasia-rodent/ Seems dubious to me, since even very low concentrations of CO2 can make humans feel very uncomfortable (the "stuffy room" feeling, where getting fresh air starts to be the only thing you can focus on.) It's possible that rodents, being smaller, go through these stages of suffocation faster so their suffering is less apparent to people. Or maybe lab workers are telling "white lies" because they think the ends justify the means but they're not sure the rest of the public will see it that way.