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Proposal to move 11 Oregon counties to Idaho
- mig39 4y agoWhat's the population of these counties? The article says "(If your governance is so bad that half the state tries to leave, you're doing something wrong.)" -- but if half the population of the state really wants change, then it should be able to do so with normal democratic functions, right? Or is this the case that these counties are lower population counties?
- Symbiote 4y agoIt says 400,000 in the article.
- Volundr 4y agoIn other words those counties represent ~10% of Oregon's population.
- djfobbz 4y agoand ~50-55% of the Oregon's land
- Volundr 4y agoLast I checked land does not vote and having more land does not make a person's opinion more important.
- BackBlast 4y agoYet we divide up political entities by what land you happened to live on. We have traditions to allow people within a region of land to self determine their government. Regardless of how many of them there are, exactly.
- mikeyouse 4y agoWhich of course is a lie to over-exaggerate their influence -- if you add up the populations of the 12 counties on their map it's only 210k people, and obviously not everyone in those counties agrees with these stupid performative measures, so some number well under 200k is likely the real figure. Malheur: 31k Harney: 8k Lake: 7k Klamath: 68k Grant: 7k Baker: 16k Wheeler: 2k Jefferson: 24k Sherman: 2k Morrow: 12k Union: 26k Wallowa: 7k https://www.oregon-demographics.com/counties_by_population https://www.oregon-demographics.com/counties_by_population It'd likely end up like Brexit anyways - these areas don't appreciate just how much tax money is spent supporting them and their "independent" lifestyles. Changing their allegiance to a poorer, smaller state would result in a much lower quality of life for them.
- saboot 4y agoIf I was a resident of portland, I'd certinaly hope no state resources would be used to prevent or contain wildfires entirely within 'Greater Idaho' borders. It's their problem now, and they can raise taxes to deal with it.
- mikeyouse 4y agoI don't live there, so not really my business, but I picked a county at random from that list (Harney) and their county budget is almost $17M. Only $3M of their budget comes from local property taxes, something like $12M in governmental transfers. > Revenues increased by $3,301,780. Expenditures increased by $1,727,698. This increase in revenue is due to the receipt of grant dollars from the Federal Delegation requests and State of Oregon fair disbursements. The Federal amount was $1,546,000 for communication upgrades through our Emergency Management Department. A new fund #105, the American Rescue Plan, brought in an additional $718,000 in grant revenue. We received $1M from the State of Oregon for fairgrounds infrastructure upgrades also included in the noted increase. Just massively living off the government teat with no hint of irony. https://www.co.harney.or.us/PDF_Files/Treasurer/Harney%20County%20Fiscal%20Year%202021-2022%20Audit.pdf https://www.co.harney.or.us/PDF_Files/Treasurer/Harney%20Cou...
- 4y ago
- not2b 4y agoAlmost no people. Lots of land.
- red-iron-pine 4y agoEastern Oregon is basically a different state, not surprised. Obviously won't go anywhere but is interesting to ponder. I mean West Virginia decided to leave Best Virginia, and we have N and S Dakotas and Carolinas.
- AlbertCory 4y agoWest Virginia seceded from a state that seceded (Virginia), so those were kinda special circumstances. As for the Dakotas & Carolinas, those both entered the US as separate states AFAIK, rather than separating after they were in the US.
- firstcommentyo 4y agoThere you have your solution Idaxit! Leave the US, split the state and rejoin the union (US) in case you still feel like. ...or maybe don't and just use the chance and bring your legislative and judiciary into the 20th century. You will be still a ahead of the then neighbouring US at least by a century. Maybe even other states feel to follow the lead. I've heard Florida is always easy to convince for such a move; maybe skip the war declaration this time. ;-) Disclosure: I have no clue about the underlying political/"cultural" differences of Idaho in contrast to the rest of the states...or Florida for this matter.
- AlbertCory 4y agoThe only problem is, it's been pretty well established by the Civil War that a state cannot secede. Otherwise good idea. In practice, though, would the 49 remaining states invade Idaho & force them back in? The middle of the state is pretty wild & mountainous.
- AnimalMuppet 4y agoI don't think North/South Carolina/Dakota are because of secession movements in a pre-existing unity, though.
- 4y ago
- mykowebhn 4y agoI'm actually okay with these counties leaving Oregon for Idaho, as long as we also let California, what's remaining of Oregon, and Washington state leave the Union and form their own country--Cascadia.
- laweijfmvo 4y agoYou probably don't want this (assuming you live in these states). If you thought Brexit was a mess, this would be 10x
- saboot 4y agoYep, every time a natural disaster strikes other states and the federal govt will be asked to pick up the tab because they refuse to have enough tax revenue to meet basic needs of their citizens. Happens already with other states.
- assbuttbuttass 4y agoTo be clear, this is a parody website
- jaywalk 4y agoNo, it's not.
- jandrese 4y agoIs it? The thing the article discusses appears to be real: https://www.greateridaho.org/vote/ https://www.greateridaho.org/vote/
- wusher 4y agonotthebee is NOT a parody website, but it is affiliated with the babylon bee which is a parody website.
- assbuttbuttass 4y agoAh, thanks
- mrchucklepants 4y agonotthebee.com is news that seems like it should be parody, but isn't. Hence the name. It is associated with the Babylon Bee though.
- AnimalMuppet 4y agoThey have an unfortunately large fraction of reality available to choose from...
- saboot 4y ago"Half of Oregon" By what, land? How many people does that represent, I'd guess a much smaller fraction Same thing in California with the State of Jefferson movement. A vocal minority of people that want an outsized say in state politics.
- edgyquant 4y agono they want a state where their say matters. You're proving their point
- Volundr 4y agoSo by this logic do we let Boise join Oregon at the same time?
- edgyquant 4y agoWhat logic? I put forth no opinion or “logic” of my own
- Volundr 4y agoYou said: > no they want a state where their say matters. You're proving their point Boise is a spot of Blue in an overwhelmingly Red state. Many Boise voters feel as though their vote doesn't matter because the votes from elsewhere in the state will drown them out. The same logic that would imply someone's say in one of these Oregon counties doesn't matter, would also imply that the say of someone living in Boise doesn't matter. It's an incorrect presumption. Your say doesn't only matter if you get your way. But it's the one you put forth.
- saboot 4y agoThey have representation already, at many levels. The city, county, and state, and congressional.
- edgyquant 4y ago
- jandrese 4y agoDespite the headline it doesn't seem like the vote has actually happened? The article has only one dumb tweet and a legislator introducing a go-nowhere bill in the Oregon state congress?
- LinuxBender 4y agoHere [1] is a video discussing some of the last times this has been attempted in Oregon and a handful of other states. And here [2] is a video specific to California but also covers some of the constitutional laws that would be an obstacle to Oregon. TL;DW These go nowhere [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEHOopbowqM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEHOopbowqM [video][12 mins] [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=549hAQCHF7c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=549hAQCHF7c [video][14 mins]
- not2b 4y agoThe US Constitution requires that, to move those counties from Oregon to Idaho, Congress, the Oregon state government, and the Idaho state government would all have to approve the transfer. Not only that, but they'd have to decide what is to be done about debts, state property, and any ongoing projects that the Oregon state government is currently paying for. Politically, if the move were to actually take place it would help Democrats slightly, by making remaining Oregon more solidly Democrat (though those counties are almost empty).
- tolmasky 4y ago> (If your governance is so bad that half the state tries to leave, you're doing something wrong.)" -- but if half the population of the state really wants change, then it should be able to do so with normal democratic functions, right? I see we're still getting mileage out of the whole "population/land" duality, huh? The combined population of all the counties that have voted to leave so far is 205,000 (the red counties, not the grey and green, which have not voted so far), which, assuming the entire population voted to leave, comes out to just 5% of the population, not 50%. For the record, that's not even 50% the population of Multnomah County (the county that has Portland in it). To be clear -- I have no particular opinion either way about whether counties should be able to switch states like free electrons in metal. In fact, I might lean towards it. I just don't see the need to repeatedly use the lamest, laziest, and cheapest rhetorical techniques in these arguments. For a group that loves to talk about virtue signaling, they sure like to "arguing-in-bad-faith" signal.
- Overtonwindow 4y agoI think the issue with Oregon is the one that we see nationwide. Major cities are dictating policy for everyone else. It's almost like the fear of the founders is coming true: Major cities are deciding elections, and everyone else is kind of ignored. Kind of like the gas stove issue...
- tolmasky 4y agoGreat! I am sympathetic to arguments around limiting state and/or Federal powers. But the reality is that that is actually less and less often the actual goal. Instead, the goal has become to have "the other side" dictate what goes on, often by trying to incorrectly portray it as an equally large "disenfranchised" side. We can tell this is the case because there is less and less discussion about "protecting minorities viewpoints," as we can see in this very article that can't help itself but to try to portray this issue as "half the population" throwing up its hands and wanting to leave. This inevitably leads to the actual problem we have in this country: minoritarian rule (that should be obviously worse than majoritarian rule, but again, gets disguised as the "actual majority" or "equally populous opposition" getting a say). If you look at the composition of the supreme court and the senate, along with the contribution to the electoral college from states in presidential votes, it's pretty clear that what gets dictated is lopsided to smaller percentages of opinion, not larger. At the current rate, we are on track to have 66% of the senate representing just 30% of the population by 2040: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/11/28/by-2040-two-thirds-of-americans-will-be-represented-by-30-percent-of-the-senate/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/11/28/b...
- sandworm101 4y ago"And those bureaucrats in the state capital can stick that in their pipes and smoke it!" ―Charles Montgomery Burns Yup. In every state/province there is some corner that thinks it would be better off leaving for greener pastures. They love to scream about it when it isn't possible. Alberta wants to leave Canada atm. There was a move in California/Oregon/Washington to join Canada a couple decades ago. Prior to that, Quebec wanted out. And Texans love to talk about how it can leave the US if it feels like it. When push comes to shove it rarely ever happens. The impact on pensions, health care and police coverage of such moves always wins out over angry people angry because everyone lese keeps electing the wrong people.
- mig39 4y agoFor the record, most people in Alberta don't want to leave Canada. Me included. https://calgaryherald.com/news/support-for-independent-alberta-drops-to-23-per-cent-poll https://calgaryherald.com/news/support-for-independent-alber... Most of those 23% don't understand how geography works, and how difficult it would be to export oil (and farm products) through a hostile Canada. I think there's something similar to Oregan happening though. A minority of Albertans that live in rural areas don't want government by "someone over there."
- Overtonwindow 4y agoThis is probably not a popular opinion, but I think a bigger state like California needs to be split up. Oregon I'm not so sure. Not for political reasons, but rather for management. If California was two states, instead of one, I think it would be significantly easier to manage. As a state beneath the federal government, California is almost like its own country. With the same hold true for Texas, possibly.
- poulsbohemian 4y agoIt would be self-defeating for these counties to leave Oregon, but Salem / Portland should do more to extend an olive branch to the east. These counties are sparsely populated, very agricultural, and generally very poor (a few rich land barrons / ranchers, and then everybody else struggling to make ends meet). The core problem is that the I-5 corridor really knows nothing about these counties, has no interest in understanding the issues in these counties, and frankly have engaged in utter hubris - we're educated, urban elites and what's best for the Willamette valley is best for the whole state . At the same time, those eastern ranchers et al are convinced those hippy dippy liberals from PDX are the anti-christ. So you've got two cultural groups completely speaking past each other. It's an even uglier divide than the same basic issues we have in Washington State. While I can't excuse my rural brethren for their often simple and crass political views, I really do wish Salem / Portland politicians would throw them a bone. Land use management, water rights, etc ARE different on the east side of the state. I've seen Salem force these counties to do things that make no sense and are crippling to the economies of these states. So sure, these counties are poor and backwards - and often it seems like Salem wants it to stay that way. While I supported many policies from Kate Brown (and Jay Inslee), they both seem to like to fan the flames over here in the east rather than work to bridge the divide - and that's really frustrating. Will remain to be seem how Tina Kotek approaches this as gov, but my guess is it will be more of the same.
- bb88 4y ago> hippy dippy liberals from PDX are the anti-christ One could argue that the east side should throw the west side a bone by treating them as humans first in any negotiation -- rather than still trying to play "punching the hippy" politics which worked to a great extent in the 1970s. The problem of politics of the right today is, that even if you do "throw them a bone", they're not going to stop with the vile rhetoric, so why even bother trying to negotiate with them?
- poulsbohemian 4y agoI completely hear and agree with you! In fact, you are being generous - given that rural folks are traditionalists who pride themselves on imagery of respect, authority, religiosity, etc - you'd think they would see the hypocrisy in their vile rhetoric. It's a challenge - those few rural votes don't make a difference in an election. The few state and national elected officials that come from these areas are in a minority position. But, so long as they feel disrespected (rightly or wrongly) they will continue to pull political stunts (the walkout of Rs in Salem, the Bundy national park takeover, this push to join Idaho) and that could have violent repercussions.
- insane_dreamer 4y agowhy is this on HN?
- poulsbohemian 4y agoProbably because a lot of HN readers live on the west coast and are interested in politics?
- insane_dreamer 4y agowell, I live on the west coast and am interested in politics, but don't expect to read that sort of article on this forum (tech/science focused)
- Bilal_io 4y agoI did a quick check to see what population loss/gain this would lead to. I've only considered the 11 counties that voted yes. County population Wallowa 7,545 (on the ballot) Wheeler 1,451 Morrow 12,303 Klamath 70,164 Harney 7,575 Sherman 1,907 Lake 8,276 Grant 7,272 Baker 16,847 Malheur 31,693 Union 26,212 Total: 191,245 Oregon's population is ~4,240,137, and will be reduced by ~4.5% Idaho's population is ~1,939,033, and will be increased by ~9.9% I am wondering, what happens to Umatilla, Gilliam or Wallowa if they vote No? they're surrounded by Washington state north, and seceding counties in the other directions.
- poulsbohemian 4y agoWallowa county (can't believe I'm talking about Wallowa county on the internet...) is a really unique place... my guess is that cooler heads will prevail there because they don't gain anything by joining Idaho. Hell's canyon blocks them from easy transit connections to Idaho - there's basically one road in and out of the county, realistically speaking. They don't gain anything by making a switch - money ties are to Portland already.
- fourmajor 4y agoI'm not going to read an article that has a pop-up about "woke Twitter mobs."
- throwayyy479087 4y agoDo .... do you not think that Twitter mobs exist?
- Brian_K_White 4y ago"A small number of people don't like something, and have a stupid idea of what to do about it."