3 ms·

Genuine question: I’ve never taken LSD, but could some of its purported visual effects be explained as seeing photons via a depressed neurological filter?

LastTrain 4y ago
It is too bad the risks (criminal) are so high, LSD is an interesting enough experience that is worth trying at least once.
- mlindner 4y ago
  As someone who's never taken LSD and have talked to people who have, the number of times people express irreversible changes in how they think about things just from trying things once makes me think that it is not a very good idea to even try once. A chemical that causes irreversible random brain chemistry changes from a single use sounds like damage has happened and the user simply interprets that damage as an improvement of some sort. In the same way we used to cut out pieces of people's brains in the early 1900s and they would report more comfortable lives.
  - culi 4y ago
    LSD as well as psilocybin and a number of other natural psychedelics exhibit what's called a "classical psychedelic effect". I've tried a couple of them and consider LSD to be essentially the same It's worth noting that psychedelic fungi and plants are absolutely GLOBAL in distribution. Psilocybe can be found basically everywhere and there are a few related genera of fungi that also contain psilocybe. South America has a ton of psychedelic plants, but even Native America has some psychedelic grasses used to make "prairie ayahuasca". There's a ton of psychedelic cacti species including a very famous cactus (which I shall not name) that very few people know is psychoactive because the Native American group that uses it wishes to protect it from being overharvested. Some very poisonous plants like nightshade are also psychoactive. The fact that indigenous people throughout the Americas have managed to develop techniques to safely utilize these plants suggests close study and attention. There's a famous "Jesus was a mushroom" take by an archeologist that the early cults from which Christianity emerged dreamed up Jesus through their use of psychedelic mushrooms. The take doesn't hold much water but what is agreed upon is that even those groups regularly consumed psychedelics. Christmas also comes from cultural usage of psychedelics. Amanita muscaria, perhaps the most famous mushroom, is that red mushroom with the white spots (kinda looks like Father Christmas, don't it). It's poisonous and very psychedelic. To consume the psychoactive, indigenous European groups would drink reindeer piss. The piss neutralizes the poison but leaves the psilocybin. And so these reindeer allow Amanita muscaria to fly around dropping gifts for us. I could go on about sweatlodges, the tens of thousands of different psychedelic plant species known, and other ways psychedelic experiences shaped cultures around the world. My point is is that psychedelics are likely a universal cultural norm. In fact I'd argue we're living in a very strange culture where their use is not very widespread. I personally didn't try a psychedelic until after highschool. My first experience cured my debilitating social anxiety and I went from my heart racing any time anyone talked to me to organizing community events within the span of a year. I've had similar effects with my depression and other mental health struggles. I'm not trying to suggest they're for everyone, but I'd say the fact that there's "irreversible changes in how [you] think about things" is exactly what makes them such a useful medicine
  - lukan 4y ago
    "A chemical that causes irreversible random brain chemistry changes from a single use sounds like damage has happened" From what I understand, LSD does not change your brain chemistry directly, but you make deep experiences, and those might change your deep thinking (and therefore the brain chemistry). Opening up your perception to other information channels. But sure, that doesn't mean it must be beneficial. And whether it is a damage I would say depends on the outcome. I know people where LSD was beneficial (solving cluster headache or overcoming addiction) and people where it clearly wasn't (became spaced out weirdos). But everything you do or don't do, comes with a risk. If LSD does not appeal to you, then just don't do it.
  - LastTrain 4y ago
    Who said it altered brain chemistry or that it would change you forever? I called it an interesting experience, that is it. Maybe for some people it is life changing, but then again some people say seeing the northern lights was life changing.
  - moloch-hai 4y ago
    Any profound experience (and many a mundane one) causes permanent change. We call that "memory". But people who are borderline schizophrenic should never do LSD. They may tip into full-on psychosis. They should, however, take MDMA, and experience quiet, maybe for the first time.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - asah 4y ago
    ...or the opposite. the VAST majority of people who have taken LSD under reasonable circumstances have an incredible, life changing experience. I personally know 100s who have, not a single one of them regrets it.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      The big problem for me is that everyone I know who has done psychedelics and enjoyed it says "yeah it was fun, not a big deal" while the people who have bad trips have REALLY FUCKING BAD TRIPS. The upside doesn't seem that big, and the downside is possibly going insane for a few years like someone I know of. It's an extremely small chance and you basically have to be predisposed and making poor choices about your setting, but it's still there.
      - asah 4y ago
        sorry to hear about your friend. I know someone who got hit by a bike while crossing the street and hasn't been the same since. Bad things happen, the question is prevalence. also, I don't think it's fair to say "the upside doesn't seem that big" when the vast majority of users report life-alteringly positive experiences, including Steve Jobs and many many others: https://www.google.com/search?q=Steve+Jobs+lsd https://www.google.com/search?q=Steve+Jobs+lsd https://www.google.com/search?q=famous+people+who+have+tried+lsd https://www.google.com/search?q=famous+people+who+have+tried... hope this helps.
      - klyrs 4y ago
        Yeah, if that's your mindset, stay away from hallucinogens!
wyager 4y ago
No, eliminating the photon count filter would just make your vision look noisy/staticky in dark conditions. Most of the effects of LSD (patterns etc) are actually pretty well understood. It's probably caused by a stable geometric pattern generated by a reaction-diffusion process in your visual cortex. https://plus.maths.org/content/uncoiling-spiral-maths-and-hallucinations https://plus.maths.org/content/uncoiling-spiral-maths-and-ha... Related to your question (although minus drugs) - I very recently figured out how to "turn off" shot noise suppression in my visual processing. I woke up a few months ago and was struggling to understand something I was looking at in the room (it was a low-contrast scene with confusing shadows) and something clicked, and all of a sudden I could see the shot noise from my eyes. Very bizarre! I can now detect it just by paying close attention in moderately dim conditions.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  In the dark I perceive an extremely "noisy" visual field, with lots of different color dots like on a shitty camera sensor at low light. Is that not normal?
  - wyager 4y ago
    Certainly not normal for me! I can now do it if I focus, but prior to learning how to do that, I would never have described my dark-environment vision as "noisy".

LastTrain 4y ago

It is too bad the risks (criminal) are so high, LSD is an interesting enough experience that is worth trying at least once.

mlindner 4y ago
As someone who's never taken LSD and have talked to people who have, the number of times people express irreversible changes in how they think about things just from trying things once makes me think that it is not a very good idea to even try once. A chemical that causes irreversible random brain chemistry changes from a single use sounds like damage has happened and the user simply interprets that damage as an improvement of some sort. In the same way we used to cut out pieces of people's brains in the early 1900s and they would report more comfortable lives.
- culi 4y ago
  LSD as well as psilocybin and a number of other natural psychedelics exhibit what's called a "classical psychedelic effect". I've tried a couple of them and consider LSD to be essentially the same It's worth noting that psychedelic fungi and plants are absolutely GLOBAL in distribution. Psilocybe can be found basically everywhere and there are a few related genera of fungi that also contain psilocybe. South America has a ton of psychedelic plants, but even Native America has some psychedelic grasses used to make "prairie ayahuasca". There's a ton of psychedelic cacti species including a very famous cactus (which I shall not name) that very few people know is psychoactive because the Native American group that uses it wishes to protect it from being overharvested. Some very poisonous plants like nightshade are also psychoactive. The fact that indigenous people throughout the Americas have managed to develop techniques to safely utilize these plants suggests close study and attention. There's a famous "Jesus was a mushroom" take by an archeologist that the early cults from which Christianity emerged dreamed up Jesus through their use of psychedelic mushrooms. The take doesn't hold much water but what is agreed upon is that even those groups regularly consumed psychedelics. Christmas also comes from cultural usage of psychedelics. Amanita muscaria, perhaps the most famous mushroom, is that red mushroom with the white spots (kinda looks like Father Christmas, don't it). It's poisonous and very psychedelic. To consume the psychoactive, indigenous European groups would drink reindeer piss. The piss neutralizes the poison but leaves the psilocybin. And so these reindeer allow Amanita muscaria to fly around dropping gifts for us. I could go on about sweatlodges, the tens of thousands of different psychedelic plant species known, and other ways psychedelic experiences shaped cultures around the world. My point is is that psychedelics are likely a universal cultural norm. In fact I'd argue we're living in a very strange culture where their use is not very widespread. I personally didn't try a psychedelic until after highschool. My first experience cured my debilitating social anxiety and I went from my heart racing any time anyone talked to me to organizing community events within the span of a year. I've had similar effects with my depression and other mental health struggles. I'm not trying to suggest they're for everyone, but I'd say the fact that there's "irreversible changes in how [you] think about things" is exactly what makes them such a useful medicine
- lukan 4y ago
  "A chemical that causes irreversible random brain chemistry changes from a single use sounds like damage has happened" From what I understand, LSD does not change your brain chemistry directly, but you make deep experiences, and those might change your deep thinking (and therefore the brain chemistry). Opening up your perception to other information channels. But sure, that doesn't mean it must be beneficial. And whether it is a damage I would say depends on the outcome. I know people where LSD was beneficial (solving cluster headache or overcoming addiction) and people where it clearly wasn't (became spaced out weirdos). But everything you do or don't do, comes with a risk. If LSD does not appeal to you, then just don't do it.
- LastTrain 4y ago
  Who said it altered brain chemistry or that it would change you forever? I called it an interesting experience, that is it. Maybe for some people it is life changing, but then again some people say seeing the northern lights was life changing.
- moloch-hai 4y ago
  Any profound experience (and many a mundane one) causes permanent change. We call that "memory". But people who are borderline schizophrenic should never do LSD. They may tip into full-on psychosis. They should, however, take MDMA, and experience quiet, maybe for the first time.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- asah 4y ago
  ...or the opposite. the VAST majority of people who have taken LSD under reasonable circumstances have an incredible, life changing experience. I personally know 100s who have, not a single one of them regrets it.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    The big problem for me is that everyone I know who has done psychedelics and enjoyed it says "yeah it was fun, not a big deal" while the people who have bad trips have REALLY FUCKING BAD TRIPS. The upside doesn't seem that big, and the downside is possibly going insane for a few years like someone I know of. It's an extremely small chance and you basically have to be predisposed and making poor choices about your setting, but it's still there.
    - asah 4y ago
      sorry to hear about your friend. I know someone who got hit by a bike while crossing the street and hasn't been the same since. Bad things happen, the question is prevalence. also, I don't think it's fair to say "the upside doesn't seem that big" when the vast majority of users report life-alteringly positive experiences, including Steve Jobs and many many others: https://www.google.com/search?q=Steve+Jobs+lsd https://www.google.com/search?q=Steve+Jobs+lsd https://www.google.com/search?q=famous+people+who+have+tried+lsd https://www.google.com/search?q=famous+people+who+have+tried... hope this helps.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      Yeah, if that's your mindset, stay away from hallucinogens!

wyager 4y ago

No, eliminating the photon count filter would just make your vision look noisy/staticky in dark conditions. Most of the effects of LSD (patterns etc) are actually pretty well understood. It's probably caused by a stable geometric pattern generated by a reaction-diffusion process in your visual cortex. https://plus.maths.org/content/uncoiling-spiral-maths-and-hallucinations https://plus.maths.org/content/uncoiling-spiral-maths-and-ha... Related to your question (although minus drugs) - I very recently figured out how to "turn off" shot noise suppression in my visual processing. I woke up a few months ago and was struggling to understand something I was looking at in the room (it was a low-contrast scene with confusing shadows) and something clicked, and all of a sudden I could see the shot noise from my eyes. Very bizarre! I can now detect it just by paying close attention in moderately dim conditions.

mrguyorama 4y ago
In the dark I perceive an extremely "noisy" visual field, with lots of different color dots like on a shitty camera sensor at low light. Is that not normal?
- wyager 4y ago
  Certainly not normal for me! I can now do it if I focus, but prior to learning how to do that, I would never have described my dark-environment vision as "noisy".