5 ms·

At what point does camping outside of your business and preventing people from coming in count as financial violence? If having complaints with the police and c

by alexb_ 4y ago

At what point does camping outside of your business and preventing people from coming in count as financial violence? If having complaints with the police and city management is as effective as yelling into the sky, how is that a solution? Put yourself in the shoes of the business owner - what would you have done in this situation?

John23832 4y ago
It doesn't. Homeless people aren't committing financial violence. You can think homelessness causes a blight on the community, it doesn't look good, or whatever. To try to say homeless people are commit financial violence by not having homes is something that I'm not going to entertain. If your complaints aren't heard by the police and city management, you sue the police and city management. Straight forward. If PG&E cut off his lights, or refused to provide the necessary maintenance, would he go throw a rock through the window at the PG&E office? No, he would go through civilized channels. The only reason he felt like he COULD spray her with water was because she was homeless. He thought he could do it, it would force her to move, and that nobody would care about a soaking wet homeless person. In society we have civilized channels to handle these types of situations, as difficult/annoying/longwinded as they may be. We do this so that we don't descend into lawlessness. The same reason why the police and management should ACTUALLY be tackling the lawless homelessness are the same reasons that they should not allow him to spray homeless people with water without recourse. When you decide to take things into your own hands and break the law doing so, there are consequences. Sucks to be him.
- vdqtp3 4y ago
  > When you decide to take things into your own hands and break the law doing so, there are consequences. Sucks to be him. Only if you're in the out-group. This woman is breaking the law constantly.
  - John23832 4y ago
    And you let the law handle the breaking of the law. Otherwise, why do you care about the law to begin with?
- alexb_ 4y ago
  >To try to say homeless people are commit financial violence by not having homes is something that I'm not going to entertain. I'm not saying that. I am saying that because the guy would refuse to leave and would physically block people from coming into the store. I don't think you actually read any of the CBS article I linked given the insane assumptions you are immediately making that this person who you have never met is instantly in the wrong, with some of those assumptions being very obviously shown wrong in the article. And on what grounds would you sue the police? That they aren't doing enough? Police do not legally have an obligation to protect anyone, or do anything for that matter. Also good luck suing the police when you have no money because you literally cannot get someone who is caring away customers to leave.
  - John23832 4y ago
    > I'm not saying that. I am saying that because the guy would refuse to leave and would physically block people from coming into the store. The headline images shows the homeless person sitting beside a trashcan and a tree. That's blocking the door? > I don't think you actually read any of the CBS article I linked given the insane assumptions you are immediately making that this person who you have never met is instantly in the wrong, with some of those assumptions being very obviously shown wrong in the article. Please tell me what I've gotten wrong as outlined in the article, and also the insane assumption I have made. < And on what grounds would you sue the police? That they aren't doing enough? Police do not legally have an obligation to protect anyone, or do anything for that matter. Also good luck suing the police when you have no money because you literally cannot get someone who is caring away customers to leave. You can sue for damages with explanation in Civil court.
    - alexb_ 4y ago
      I'm starting to wonder if you even read my comment. So let me just repeat for you: >Gwin has lived in San Francisco for 45 years. He said this confrontation was the result of multiple attempts to get the woman help, after he spent days cleaning up her mess and letting her sleep in his doorway. He added that she often knocks over trash cans, and her behavior has scared off his clients. >Gwin said he and other business owners in the area have called SFPD and social services more than two dozen times in the last two weeks. This person had: - frequently made messes (i'm guessing defecating) outside of the business - slept in the doorway of the business - knocks over trash cans - scares off clients - had the cops and social services called on them multiple times with absolutely no action
- idopmstuff 4y ago
  > If your complaints aren't heard by the police and city management, you sue the police and city management. Straight forward. You think suing the police and city management are straightforward? That is an expensive and likely years-long process. If your problem is that you're losing a significant amount of business every day because of the presence of this woman, who is clearly breaking laws on a regular basis, then the reality is that a lawsuit against a city is likely to end in you going bankrupt before it even reaches a verdict. How is that a straightforward solution? How is it any kind of a solution? > We do this so that we don't descend into lawlessness. If this guy is suffering serious harm because a woman is repeatedly breaking the law, why do you say his actions caused us to descend into lawlesness? Weren't we already there?
  - John23832 4y ago
    >You think suing the police and city management are straightforward? That is an expensive and likely years-long process. If your problem is that you're losing a significant amount of business every day because of the presence of this woman, who is clearly breaking laws on a regular basis, then the reality is that a lawsuit against a city is likely to end in you going bankrupt before it even reaches a verdict. I never said it was something that you could do in an afternoon, in fact I outlined how these process can be meandering. They are however the CORRECT and CIVILIZE process to have grievances heard. You are not entitled to microwave solutions. > If this guy is suffering serious harm because a woman is repeatedly breaking the law, why do you say his actions caused us to descend into lawlesness? Weren't we already there? He was not suffering any serious harm when he decided to spray her with water while she sat by a trashcan and and a tree. Be real. And at any rate he is not entitled to spraying anyone with water. Hence the charges.
    - idopmstuff 4y ago
      > You are not entitled to microwave solutions. No one is entitled to stand outside of someone's business screaming obscenities, but that's what this woman is doing. If people should be arrested and prosecuted for engaging in illegal behavior that they're not entitled to engage in, she should be arrested and charged, correct?
dTal 4y ago
"Financial violence" is a hell of a rhetorical turn. You don't get to redefine "violence" into anything you don't like, and you don't get to assault someone just because you think they're costing your business money. That's not a road we want to go down, as a society.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > You don't get to redefine "violence" into anything you don't like How is the term "financial violence" any worse about that than, e.g., "structural violence"?
  - mrcrumb1 4y ago
    Structural violence arguably causes death and bodily injury at a large scale. Surely you can see the difference there.
    - pseudo0 4y ago
      Financial crimes absolutely can cause death and bodily injury on a large scale. Madoff's ponzi scheme caused multiple suicides, for example, including Thierry Magon de La Villehuchet, and Charles Murphy. Then there are the thousands of people who suddenly could not afford healthcare, or lost their home.
    - whynaut 4y ago
      and poverty doesn't?
- voakbasda 4y ago
  I had my entire life savings stolen by an ex-fiancée. My entire life was turned upside down, and every aspect of my life made public in the courts. I say that I was financially raped, because the experience gave me PTSD and worse. This person sure has hell experienced what I would term financial violence. His business was being assaulted regularly. His government let it happen. Honestly, he should have sprayed down the town police and politicians. They utterly failed both the woman and the business owner in this case.
csb6 4y ago
How is spraying a woman with a water hose a solution? It certainly isn’t going to improve his store’s public image or help the woman get help. Business owners are not entitled to taking out their frustrations on homeless people.
- idopmstuff 4y ago
  He's not just taking out his frustrations about his general life problems on random homeless people; he's trying to get one specific homeless person who is actively causing problems for his business while repeatedly breaking the law to stop. He's also only doing so after having attempted to use more legal and appropriate interventions repeatedly, only to be blown off by the people in government who are responsible for resolving this kind of situation to totally ignore him.
  - brenschluss 4y ago
    All of what you're saying is true, but it doesn't make assault okay.
    - idopmstuff 4y ago
      I'll repeat what I've posted in response to other folks here: What is a better thing that he is practically able to do that has any reasonable chance of resolving this issue?

by alexb_ 4y ago

John23832 4y ago

It doesn't. Homeless people aren't committing financial violence. You can think homelessness causes a blight on the community, it doesn't look good, or whatever. To try to say homeless people are commit financial violence by not having homes is something that I'm not going to entertain. If your complaints aren't heard by the police and city management, you sue the police and city management. Straight forward. If PG&E cut off his lights, or refused to provide the necessary maintenance, would he go throw a rock through the window at the PG&E office? No, he would go through civilized channels. The only reason he felt like he COULD spray her with water was because she was homeless. He thought he could do it, it would force her to move, and that nobody would care about a soaking wet homeless person. In society we have civilized channels to handle these types of situations, as difficult/annoying/longwinded as they may be. We do this so that we don't descend into lawlessness. The same reason why the police and management should ACTUALLY be tackling the lawless homelessness are the same reasons that they should not allow him to spray homeless people with water without recourse. When you decide to take things into your own hands and break the law doing so, there are consequences. Sucks to be him.

vdqtp3 4y ago
> When you decide to take things into your own hands and break the law doing so, there are consequences. Sucks to be him. Only if you're in the out-group. This woman is breaking the law constantly.
- John23832 4y ago
  And you let the law handle the breaking of the law. Otherwise, why do you care about the law to begin with?
alexb_ 4y ago
>To try to say homeless people are commit financial violence by not having homes is something that I'm not going to entertain. I'm not saying that. I am saying that because the guy would refuse to leave and would physically block people from coming into the store. I don't think you actually read any of the CBS article I linked given the insane assumptions you are immediately making that this person who you have never met is instantly in the wrong, with some of those assumptions being very obviously shown wrong in the article. And on what grounds would you sue the police? That they aren't doing enough? Police do not legally have an obligation to protect anyone, or do anything for that matter. Also good luck suing the police when you have no money because you literally cannot get someone who is caring away customers to leave.
- John23832 4y ago
  > I'm not saying that. I am saying that because the guy would refuse to leave and would physically block people from coming into the store. The headline images shows the homeless person sitting beside a trashcan and a tree. That's blocking the door? > I don't think you actually read any of the CBS article I linked given the insane assumptions you are immediately making that this person who you have never met is instantly in the wrong, with some of those assumptions being very obviously shown wrong in the article. Please tell me what I've gotten wrong as outlined in the article, and also the insane assumption I have made. < And on what grounds would you sue the police? That they aren't doing enough? Police do not legally have an obligation to protect anyone, or do anything for that matter. Also good luck suing the police when you have no money because you literally cannot get someone who is caring away customers to leave. You can sue for damages with explanation in Civil court.
  - alexb_ 4y ago
    I'm starting to wonder if you even read my comment. So let me just repeat for you: >Gwin has lived in San Francisco for 45 years. He said this confrontation was the result of multiple attempts to get the woman help, after he spent days cleaning up her mess and letting her sleep in his doorway. He added that she often knocks over trash cans, and her behavior has scared off his clients. >Gwin said he and other business owners in the area have called SFPD and social services more than two dozen times in the last two weeks. This person had: - frequently made messes (i'm guessing defecating) outside of the business - slept in the doorway of the business - knocks over trash cans - scares off clients - had the cops and social services called on them multiple times with absolutely no action
idopmstuff 4y ago
> If your complaints aren't heard by the police and city management, you sue the police and city management. Straight forward. You think suing the police and city management are straightforward? That is an expensive and likely years-long process. If your problem is that you're losing a significant amount of business every day because of the presence of this woman, who is clearly breaking laws on a regular basis, then the reality is that a lawsuit against a city is likely to end in you going bankrupt before it even reaches a verdict. How is that a straightforward solution? How is it any kind of a solution? > We do this so that we don't descend into lawlessness. If this guy is suffering serious harm because a woman is repeatedly breaking the law, why do you say his actions caused us to descend into lawlesness? Weren't we already there?
- John23832 4y ago
  >You think suing the police and city management are straightforward? That is an expensive and likely years-long process. If your problem is that you're losing a significant amount of business every day because of the presence of this woman, who is clearly breaking laws on a regular basis, then the reality is that a lawsuit against a city is likely to end in you going bankrupt before it even reaches a verdict. I never said it was something that you could do in an afternoon, in fact I outlined how these process can be meandering. They are however the CORRECT and CIVILIZE process to have grievances heard. You are not entitled to microwave solutions. > If this guy is suffering serious harm because a woman is repeatedly breaking the law, why do you say his actions caused us to descend into lawlesness? Weren't we already there? He was not suffering any serious harm when he decided to spray her with water while she sat by a trashcan and and a tree. Be real. And at any rate he is not entitled to spraying anyone with water. Hence the charges.
  - idopmstuff 4y ago
    > You are not entitled to microwave solutions. No one is entitled to stand outside of someone's business screaming obscenities, but that's what this woman is doing. If people should be arrested and prosecuted for engaging in illegal behavior that they're not entitled to engage in, she should be arrested and charged, correct?

dTal 4y ago

"Financial violence" is a hell of a rhetorical turn. You don't get to redefine "violence" into anything you don't like, and you don't get to assault someone just because you think they're costing your business money. That's not a road we want to go down, as a society.

josephcsible 4y ago
> You don't get to redefine "violence" into anything you don't like How is the term "financial violence" any worse about that than, e.g., "structural violence"?
- mrcrumb1 4y ago
  Structural violence arguably causes death and bodily injury at a large scale. Surely you can see the difference there.
  - pseudo0 4y ago
    Financial crimes absolutely can cause death and bodily injury on a large scale. Madoff's ponzi scheme caused multiple suicides, for example, including Thierry Magon de La Villehuchet, and Charles Murphy. Then there are the thousands of people who suddenly could not afford healthcare, or lost their home.
  - whynaut 4y ago
    and poverty doesn't?
voakbasda 4y ago
I had my entire life savings stolen by an ex-fiancée. My entire life was turned upside down, and every aspect of my life made public in the courts. I say that I was financially raped, because the experience gave me PTSD and worse. This person sure has hell experienced what I would term financial violence. His business was being assaulted regularly. His government let it happen. Honestly, he should have sprayed down the town police and politicians. They utterly failed both the woman and the business owner in this case.

csb6 4y ago

How is spraying a woman with a water hose a solution? It certainly isn’t going to improve his store’s public image or help the woman get help. Business owners are not entitled to taking out their frustrations on homeless people.

idopmstuff 4y ago
He's not just taking out his frustrations about his general life problems on random homeless people; he's trying to get one specific homeless person who is actively causing problems for his business while repeatedly breaking the law to stop. He's also only doing so after having attempted to use more legal and appropriate interventions repeatedly, only to be blown off by the people in government who are responsible for resolving this kind of situation to totally ignore him.
- brenschluss 4y ago
  All of what you're saying is true, but it doesn't make assault okay.
  - idopmstuff 4y ago
    I'll repeat what I've posted in response to other folks here: What is a better thing that he is practically able to do that has any reasonable chance of resolving this issue?