9 ms·

San Francisco art gallery owner arrested after spraying water on homeless person

33 points by crhulls 4y ago

PaulHoule 4y ago
The thing is that the city and the culture sets a very bad example by doing nothing to support homeless people (showing this, not telling this), which leads people to perceive that these people are worthless and that they can be victimized without limit. I think of this episode of American Greed https://www.cnbc.com/2010/02/08/American-Greed:-The-Black-Widows.html https://www.cnbc.com/2010/02/08/American-Greed:-The-Black-Wi... about two elderly women who killed homeless men to collect life insurance. They were quite shocked to discover that the state of California would pay for a homicide detective to investigate the case of somebody who the state treated like dirt when they were alive.
alexb_ 4y ago
CBS had a report on this[0] that is illuminating: >Gwin has lived in San Francisco for 45 years. He said this confrontation was the result of multiple attempts to get the woman help, after he spent days cleaning up her mess and letting her sleep in his doorway. He added that she often knocks over trash cans, and her behavior has scared off his clients. >Gwin said he and other business owners in the area have called SFPD and social services more than two dozen times in the last two weeks. >"I said she needs psychiatric help," Gwin said. "You can tell, she's pulling her hair, she's screaming, she's talking in tongues, you can't understand anything she says, she's throwing food everywhere." >Gwin said on Monday, he'd had enough. [0]https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/homeless-woman-hosed-down-san-francisco-arrest-warrant-collier-gwin/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/homeless-woman-hos...
- John23832 4y ago
  All of those things can be true, but then his ire should be with the police and the city management which have let SF (and larger California) descend into an unmanaged mess. That doesn't give you the right to spray anyone with water. Bad behavior by one party (short of violence) does not excuse bad behavior by another. There is no "they had it coming" enshrined in law.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - alexb_ 4y ago
    At what point does camping outside of your business and preventing people from coming in count as financial violence? If having complaints with the police and city management is as effective as yelling into the sky, how is that a solution? Put yourself in the shoes of the business owner - what would you have done in this situation?
    - John23832 4y ago
      It doesn't. Homeless people aren't committing financial violence. You can think homelessness causes a blight on the community, it doesn't look good, or whatever. To try to say homeless people are commit financial violence by not having homes is something that I'm not going to entertain. If your complaints aren't heard by the police and city management, you sue the police and city management. Straight forward. If PG&E cut off his lights, or refused to provide the necessary maintenance, would he go throw a rock through the window at the PG&E office? No, he would go through civilized channels. The only reason he felt like he COULD spray her with water was because she was homeless. He thought he could do it, it would force her to move, and that nobody would care about a soaking wet homeless person. In society we have civilized channels to handle these types of situations, as difficult/annoying/longwinded as they may be. We do this so that we don't descend into lawlessness. The same reason why the police and management should ACTUALLY be tackling the lawless homelessness are the same reasons that they should not allow him to spray homeless people with water without recourse. When you decide to take things into your own hands and break the law doing so, there are consequences. Sucks to be him.
      - vdqtp3 4y ago
        > When you decide to take things into your own hands and break the law doing so, there are consequences. Sucks to be him. Only if you're in the out-group. This woman is breaking the law constantly.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  Thankfully “being understandably frustrated with someone” is not a defense for misdemeanor battery.
- whatatita 4y ago
  Later in the linked article Gwin is quoted as saying he's sorry for what he did and it ws the result of a harsh reaction in the heat of the moment. He seems genuinely apologetic. That doesn't justify his behavior of course, but it goes a long way to understanding the situation better; he tried to help and lashed out in frustration when it didn't work. The real focus should be on the total failure of the city (and the US in general) to deal with the rise in homelessness.
rasz 4y ago
Try calling cops after homeless pisses on you, or shits in your car.
- black_13 4y ago
  [dead]
- dang 4y ago
  Would you please stop posting flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN, and breaking the site guidelines generally? You've been doing it repeatedly, in this thread and elsewhere (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34424187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34424187) and we've had to ask you many times already not to. I don't want to ban you, but this is not cool. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33209948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33209948 (Oct 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32922335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32922335 (Sept 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31010834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31010834 (April 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27927198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27927198 (July 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27089584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27089584 (May 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26857484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26857484 (April 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21875867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21875867 (Dec 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15143690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15143690 (Aug 2017)
thereallyreal 4y ago
The funny part in all this is that everyone is paying state income taxes for this. Who cares that you are driving a home and living in a car when the outside shuns your success.
- plusminusplus 4y ago
  It's funny that the taxpayers are paying for a police force that, after "25 calls on record to police", did not handle the situation? That's sad and frustrating.
treebeard901 4y ago
This is difficult. People have a right to exist. For many, simplying existing has been criminalized. The Government should do more and they are the ones at fault here in my opinion. There was a time people with real psychiatric issues were not left to starve and die on the street. It's a cost saving measure for the Government to have removed that support and as a result the burden has been shifted to society in general.
warning26 4y ago
[flagged]
- whatatita 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- csb6 4y ago
  > Ideally, he could have dealt with the person in a more permanent manner Care to elaborate on what you mean by this?
  - dang 4y ago
    "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 4y ago
  Posting a la your second paragraph is not cool on HN and will get you banned here, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
When people lose confidence in law enforcement, you end up with vigilantism. This seems to be case here. Unless cities start enforcing laws and bringing order, you are probably going to see more instances of this type of thing.
50 4y ago
A lot of fascists in this thread, to no one's surprise.
- laserdancepony 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - plusminusplus 4y ago
    [flagged]
latchkey 4y ago
I'm sure that very few people on this site have experience owning a business with a street presence in San Francisco. I do. I had a business on 11th & Folsom for 5 years, which is the 'night club' part of town and was/is a pretty shady area full of homeless people. I can't imagine ever spraying someone down. That is beyond f'cked up. In my mind, there is zero excuse he could come up with to justify his actions. I don't care what she did or did not do to deserve that in his head. This guy deserves whatever he has coming to him from a legal perspective.
- latchkey 4y ago
  I'm getting voted into negative territory. Sad to think that HN had so much homeless hatred.
anonuser123456 4y ago
I doubt this will go very far. The shop keeper has an affirmative defense under California law. If he succeeds in his defense it will set a precedent and soon everyone will be spraying down the homeless. The DA surely recognized this.
- rasz 4y ago
  City will impose strict water restrictions and call problem solved.
  - anonuser123456 4y ago
    In keeping with SF dysfunction, they will impose those restrictions but still require shop keepers to cleanup the shit and dirty needles from the sidewalk. When said shop keepers cannot do so w/out water, they will fine them for violating city ordnances. So it’s a double win for the city.

33 points by crhulls 4y ago

The thing is that the city and the culture sets a very bad example by doing nothing to support homeless people (showing this, not telling this), which leads people to perceive that these people are worthless and that they can be victimized without limit. I think of this episode of American Greed https://www.cnbc.com/2010/02/08/American-Greed:-The-Black-Widows.html https://www.cnbc.com/2010/02/08/American-Greed:-The-Black-Wi... about two elderly women who killed homeless men to collect life insurance. They were quite shocked to discover that the state of California would pay for a homicide detective to investigate the case of somebody who the state treated like dirt when they were alive.

alexb_ 4y ago

CBS had a report on this[0] that is illuminating: >Gwin has lived in San Francisco for 45 years. He said this confrontation was the result of multiple attempts to get the woman help, after he spent days cleaning up her mess and letting her sleep in his doorway. He added that she often knocks over trash cans, and her behavior has scared off his clients. >Gwin said he and other business owners in the area have called SFPD and social services more than two dozen times in the last two weeks. >"I said she needs psychiatric help," Gwin said. "You can tell, she's pulling her hair, she's screaming, she's talking in tongues, you can't understand anything she says, she's throwing food everywhere." >Gwin said on Monday, he'd had enough. [0]https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/homeless-woman-hosed-down-san-francisco-arrest-warrant-collier-gwin/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/homeless-woman-hos...

John23832 4y ago
All of those things can be true, but then his ire should be with the police and the city management which have let SF (and larger California) descend into an unmanaged mess. That doesn't give you the right to spray anyone with water. Bad behavior by one party (short of violence) does not excuse bad behavior by another. There is no "they had it coming" enshrined in law.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- alexb_ 4y ago
  At what point does camping outside of your business and preventing people from coming in count as financial violence? If having complaints with the police and city management is as effective as yelling into the sky, how is that a solution? Put yourself in the shoes of the business owner - what would you have done in this situation?
  - John23832 4y ago
    It doesn't. Homeless people aren't committing financial violence. You can think homelessness causes a blight on the community, it doesn't look good, or whatever. To try to say homeless people are commit financial violence by not having homes is something that I'm not going to entertain. If your complaints aren't heard by the police and city management, you sue the police and city management. Straight forward. If PG&E cut off his lights, or refused to provide the necessary maintenance, would he go throw a rock through the window at the PG&E office? No, he would go through civilized channels. The only reason he felt like he COULD spray her with water was because she was homeless. He thought he could do it, it would force her to move, and that nobody would care about a soaking wet homeless person. In society we have civilized channels to handle these types of situations, as difficult/annoying/longwinded as they may be. We do this so that we don't descend into lawlessness. The same reason why the police and management should ACTUALLY be tackling the lawless homelessness are the same reasons that they should not allow him to spray homeless people with water without recourse. When you decide to take things into your own hands and break the law doing so, there are consequences. Sucks to be him.
    - vdqtp3 4y ago
      > When you decide to take things into your own hands and break the law doing so, there are consequences. Sucks to be him. Only if you're in the out-group. This woman is breaking the law constantly.
tshaddox 4y ago
Thankfully “being understandably frustrated with someone” is not a defense for misdemeanor battery.
whatatita 4y ago
Later in the linked article Gwin is quoted as saying he's sorry for what he did and it ws the result of a harsh reaction in the heat of the moment. He seems genuinely apologetic. That doesn't justify his behavior of course, but it goes a long way to understanding the situation better; he tried to help and lashed out in frustration when it didn't work. The real focus should be on the total failure of the city (and the US in general) to deal with the rise in homelessness.

rasz 4y ago

Try calling cops after homeless pisses on you, or shits in your car.

black_13 4y ago
[dead]
dang 4y ago
Would you please stop posting flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN, and breaking the site guidelines generally? You've been doing it repeatedly, in this thread and elsewhere (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34424187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34424187) and we've had to ask you many times already not to. I don't want to ban you, but this is not cool. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33209948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33209948 (Oct 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32922335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32922335 (Sept 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31010834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31010834 (April 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27927198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27927198 (July 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27089584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27089584 (May 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26857484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26857484 (April 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21875867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21875867 (Dec 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15143690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15143690 (Aug 2017)

thereallyreal 4y ago

The funny part in all this is that everyone is paying state income taxes for this. Who cares that you are driving a home and living in a car when the outside shuns your success.

plusminusplus 4y ago
It's funny that the taxpayers are paying for a police force that, after "25 calls on record to police", did not handle the situation? That's sad and frustrating.

treebeard901 4y ago

This is difficult. People have a right to exist. For many, simplying existing has been criminalized. The Government should do more and they are the ones at fault here in my opinion. There was a time people with real psychiatric issues were not left to starve and die on the street. It's a cost saving measure for the Government to have removed that support and as a result the burden has been shifted to society in general.

warning26 4y ago

[flagged]

whatatita 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
csb6 4y ago
> Ideally, he could have dealt with the person in a more permanent manner Care to elaborate on what you mean by this?
- dang 4y ago
  "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 4y ago
Posting a la your second paragraph is not cool on HN and will get you banned here, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

When people lose confidence in law enforcement, you end up with vigilantism. This seems to be case here. Unless cities start enforcing laws and bringing order, you are probably going to see more instances of this type of thing.

50 4y ago

A lot of fascists in this thread, to no one's surprise.

laserdancepony 4y ago
[flagged]
- plusminusplus 4y ago
  [flagged]

latchkey 4y ago

I'm sure that very few people on this site have experience owning a business with a street presence in San Francisco. I do. I had a business on 11th & Folsom for 5 years, which is the 'night club' part of town and was/is a pretty shady area full of homeless people. I can't imagine ever spraying someone down. That is beyond f'cked up. In my mind, there is zero excuse he could come up with to justify his actions. I don't care what she did or did not do to deserve that in his head. This guy deserves whatever he has coming to him from a legal perspective.

latchkey 4y ago
I'm getting voted into negative territory. Sad to think that HN had so much homeless hatred.

anonuser123456 4y ago

I doubt this will go very far. The shop keeper has an affirmative defense under California law. If he succeeds in his defense it will set a precedent and soon everyone will be spraying down the homeless. The DA surely recognized this.

rasz 4y ago
City will impose strict water restrictions and call problem solved.
- anonuser123456 4y ago
  In keeping with SF dysfunction, they will impose those restrictions but still require shop keepers to cleanup the shit and dirty needles from the sidewalk. When said shop keepers cannot do so w/out water, they will fine them for violating city ordnances. So it’s a double win for the city.