3 ms·

Companies aren't really people. You wouldn't call a rock falling from a cliff a psychopath, you just don't stand near cliffs.

by Neil44 4y ago

TeMPOraL 4y ago
Except the companies are less like rocks, and more like quasi-sentient AIs that run this planet.
- Neil44 4y ago
  They're part of the universe in the same way as rocks trees and gravity. Rocks and trees are not iherently good or bad except in our minds. They just 'are'. Same with companies. If a rock is falling you get out of the way using the agency available to you, if you fail you die. So it has always been so it will always be. To project qualities onto things that they don't really have, to expect the rock to swerve around you because of your internal system of beliefs is a recipie for stress, confusion and ultimately unhappiness.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    Gulags and the breast ripper are part of this universe in the same way as rocks and trees and gravity. Rocks and trees are not iherently good or bad except in our minds Firstly, rocks exist on mars, Companies and the gas chamber don't - because they are man-made. Secondly, concepts of good and bad only exist in your mind to begin with. Thirdly, if we followed this logic for the past 500 years, you would probably be enjoying the breast ripper for treason or something.
    - Neil44 4y ago
      Needing to find a new job in your lucrative industry after a nice golden goodbye from your previous one is not equivalent to a breast ripper.
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        You treat social constructs as immutable part of the universe like rocks and trees. If we lived in 1500's you'd replace the word 'company' with 'medieval lord'. Betraying you medieval lord for a competitor was treason, with equivalent of a breast ripper being employed.
        Neil44 4y ago
        > You treat social constructs as immutable part of the universe like rocks and trees. Fair point. > If we lived in 1500's you'd replace the word 'company' with 'medieval lord'. In some ways I see the equivalence because they both have power but luckily our justice system has evolved since then and there are more checks on power. We've also evolved from feudalism to whatever kind of capitalism we're in now. I think capitalism is a long way from perfect because it often doesn't align with our internal belief systems, partly because nobody has a complete view of the situation (even the CEO who cannot see the future) so our belief systems act on incomplete information and partly because there are perhaps not enough rules baked in to insert moralistic behaviour into it. I don't think that turning companies into social security is a good way forward. Just have social security. Don't loose sight that if your economy isn't competitive in the world then all this becomes moot because you all loose.
fathyb 4y ago
In this case, people do control the rock from the inside and can divert the rock, but falling from a cliff saves money.
- Neil44 4y ago
  Your argument is with gravity, not rocks. Either way seems like a waste of energy to me.
sobkas 4y ago
> Companies aren't really people. You wouldn't call a rock falling from a cliff a psychopath, you just don't stand near cliffs. Decisions in companies are made by people, not rocks. And their decisions aren't a product of laws comparable to theory of gravity. And saying that CEO had no other choice but to fall on head of unsuspecting employee and/or client is a lie.
- Neil44 4y ago
  People who have responsibilities to a wide veriety of people including the remaining 138,000 employees, who have a very great interest in the continued health of the company.
  - sobkas 4y ago
    If only owners/management was so interested in well-being of the remaining 138,000 employees and instead of doing buybacks, saved that money for salaries. Also jobs were cut not to save Google from bankruptcy, it was done to raise profits and shares value. They would be fine with few $10^9 less, but they don't want some of the money, they want all the money. Infinite growth is impossible.
smcl 4y ago
I mean it's a nice metaphor on the surface, but it completely falls apart because in reality we do a lot of things to prevent rocks from falling and damaging us and our property. From signs that warn of falling rocks to netting/drapery and even elaborate electrical warning systems[0]. We work together and mitigate it. What does this mean for companies? I dunno, but given they are man-made and that societies and attitudes shift over time I suspect it doesn't at all mean that companies doing bad shit are an inevitable thing we should accept and that all we can do is to just try our best not to personally draw their ire. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzAfich6mow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzAfich6mow
- Neil44 4y ago
  You assume that nothing was done to mitigate this but you do not have that knowledge you only assume it. You assume there's some alternate universe available to us where everything is good for everyone all the time. Let's look at the universe where Google becomes a social security service instead of a competitive entity. If only 12,000 people are on the bad side of that one we'd be improbably lucky.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - smcl 4y ago
    I’ve no idea what you’re saying
Shish2k 4y ago
> you just don't stand near cliffs Actually we don’t _just_ do that - we also put up fences, we reinforce parts of cliffs that need to stay up, we supply safety equipment to people who need to be there for some reason Similarly with companies, we don’t just “avoid going near them” (is that actually your proposed solution - opting out of society?); we regulate, we unionise, we hold people accountable and make the most blatantly harmful behaviours illegal

Companies aren't really people. You wouldn't call a rock falling from a cliff a psychopath, you just don't stand near cliffs.

by Neil44 4y ago

Companies aren't really people. You wouldn't call a rock falling from a cliff a psychopath, you just don't stand near cliffs.

TeMPOraL 4y ago

Except the companies are less like rocks, and more like quasi-sentient AIs that run this planet.

Neil44 4y ago
They're part of the universe in the same way as rocks trees and gravity. Rocks and trees are not iherently good or bad except in our minds. They just 'are'. Same with companies. If a rock is falling you get out of the way using the agency available to you, if you fail you die. So it has always been so it will always be. To project qualities onto things that they don't really have, to expect the rock to swerve around you because of your internal system of beliefs is a recipie for stress, confusion and ultimately unhappiness.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Gulags and the breast ripper are part of this universe in the same way as rocks and trees and gravity. Rocks and trees are not iherently good or bad except in our minds Firstly, rocks exist on mars, Companies and the gas chamber don't - because they are man-made. Secondly, concepts of good and bad only exist in your mind to begin with. Thirdly, if we followed this logic for the past 500 years, you would probably be enjoying the breast ripper for treason or something.
  - Neil44 4y ago
    Needing to find a new job in your lucrative industry after a nice golden goodbye from your previous one is not equivalent to a breast ripper.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      You treat social constructs as immutable part of the universe like rocks and trees. If we lived in 1500's you'd replace the word 'company' with 'medieval lord'. Betraying you medieval lord for a competitor was treason, with equivalent of a breast ripper being employed.
      - Neil44 4y ago
        > You treat social constructs as immutable part of the universe like rocks and trees. Fair point. > If we lived in 1500's you'd replace the word 'company' with 'medieval lord'. In some ways I see the equivalence because they both have power but luckily our justice system has evolved since then and there are more checks on power. We've also evolved from feudalism to whatever kind of capitalism we're in now. I think capitalism is a long way from perfect because it often doesn't align with our internal belief systems, partly because nobody has a complete view of the situation (even the CEO who cannot see the future) so our belief systems act on incomplete information and partly because there are perhaps not enough rules baked in to insert moralistic behaviour into it. I don't think that turning companies into social security is a good way forward. Just have social security. Don't loose sight that if your economy isn't competitive in the world then all this becomes moot because you all loose.

fathyb 4y ago

In this case, people do control the rock from the inside and can divert the rock, but falling from a cliff saves money.

Neil44 4y ago
Your argument is with gravity, not rocks. Either way seems like a waste of energy to me.

sobkas 4y ago

> Companies aren't really people. You wouldn't call a rock falling from a cliff a psychopath, you just don't stand near cliffs. Decisions in companies are made by people, not rocks. And their decisions aren't a product of laws comparable to theory of gravity. And saying that CEO had no other choice but to fall on head of unsuspecting employee and/or client is a lie.

Neil44 4y ago
People who have responsibilities to a wide veriety of people including the remaining 138,000 employees, who have a very great interest in the continued health of the company.
- sobkas 4y ago
  If only owners/management was so interested in well-being of the remaining 138,000 employees and instead of doing buybacks, saved that money for salaries. Also jobs were cut not to save Google from bankruptcy, it was done to raise profits and shares value. They would be fine with few $10^9 less, but they don't want some of the money, they want all the money. Infinite growth is impossible.

smcl 4y ago

I mean it's a nice metaphor on the surface, but it completely falls apart because in reality we do a lot of things to prevent rocks from falling and damaging us and our property. From signs that warn of falling rocks to netting/drapery and even elaborate electrical warning systems[0]. We work together and mitigate it. What does this mean for companies? I dunno, but given they are man-made and that societies and attitudes shift over time I suspect it doesn't at all mean that companies doing bad shit are an inevitable thing we should accept and that all we can do is to just try our best not to personally draw their ire. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzAfich6mow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzAfich6mow

Neil44 4y ago
You assume that nothing was done to mitigate this but you do not have that knowledge you only assume it. You assume there's some alternate universe available to us where everything is good for everyone all the time. Let's look at the universe where Google becomes a social security service instead of a competitive entity. If only 12,000 people are on the bad side of that one we'd be improbably lucky.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- smcl 4y ago
  I’ve no idea what you’re saying

Shish2k 4y ago

> you just don't stand near cliffs Actually we don’t _just_ do that - we also put up fences, we reinforce parts of cliffs that need to stay up, we supply safety equipment to people who need to be there for some reason Similarly with companies, we don’t just “avoid going near them” (is that actually your proposed solution - opting out of society?); we regulate, we unionise, we hold people accountable and make the most blatantly harmful behaviours illegal