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These experts in education unfortunately take one thing for granted, that PhDs need to be trained. I really don't think that's true and that there is any need f

These experts in education unfortunately take one thing for granted, that PhDs need to be trained. I really don't think that's true and that there is any need for PhD training. At least, there shouldn't be any need. Here is the thing: The purpose of a PhD is to demonstrate the ability to conduct scientific research independently. When a student enters a PhD program, they should have all the prerequisites to do that. If not, the university has failed and the study program needs to be reformed. A PhD student needs to have the ability to conduct research and write a thesis, and they get more time for that than they will ever have again as a postdoc. In my opinion it's really that simple: Do the research and write your PhD thesis, and finish it in time. This "training" idea comes from the US, and the only effect of this in Europe I've seen so far is that unnecessary and off-topic PhD courses with point systems have been invented. At least in my area, these are completely useless and merely delay work on the PhD thesis. What they should do, however, is to stop the grade inflation and stop handing out a PhD to everyone, no matter how bad the thesis. That's the real problem, I've seen plenty of lazy, extremely low-effort theses, and every time the lazy PhD student passes the defense and gets the PhD. That devalues the PhD and the work of those who take it seriously. Please start to let at least the worst PhD students fail.

mnky9800n 4y ago
But PhD in USA doesn't require master level education but Europe does. That's a big difference. But actually I mostly agree with you. PhD should be focused on apprenticeship and nothing else.
- arethuza 4y ago
  The UK doesn't require a master's degree before doing a PhD - at least it didn't back in the 1980s/1990s....
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  Many PhD programs in the US take ~5 years or more, and often hand out "boilerplate" Master's degrees in the process. Source: saw it happen a bunch at big state schools in California, and heard of similar things in VA, and NY schools.
  - mnky9800n 4y ago
    if you do a 2 years master degree and a 4 year phd that takes 6 years. that is a reasonable expectation in Norway (Where i did my phd).
    - jonathanstrange 4y ago
      What? You can do a 2 years master degree in Norway? I studied in Germany and 2 years could only get you a B.A., 4 years was the absolute minimum for an M.A. or equivalent degree. But perhaps this has changed.
      - mnky9800n 4y ago
        the student has BS degree before they start MS. so 3 years for BS and 2 for MS.
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
Yep, i never understood this either. You finish your college, you're officially an (eg.) engineer now, you can build a bridge, millions of people will use every year, and it's ok... but if you want to try out new compositions and additives of/to cement in a lab environment and measure their properties, you need a mentor, and six different unrelated courses... and preferably a well-known name to co-author your article, to get it published at all.
- watwut 4y ago
  > You finish your college, you're officially an (eg.) engineer now, you can build a bridge, millions of people will use every year, and it's ok As an engineer just out of the school, you wont be the one responsible for building a bridge millions of people will use every year. It takes more years to get there.
- dagw 4y ago
  First of all a freshly graduated engineer will never be signing off on a bridge used by millions of people a years. More importantly designing a bridge using a century old design, well understood materials, and sticking to all the well known, well documented and legally mandated best practices we have accumulated over the years is an entirely different skill than trying to come up with a novel and better way of designing or building a bridge and then conclusively proving that it is still at least as safe as the old way of building a bridge.
jltsiren 4y ago
> Here is the thing: The purpose of a PhD is to demonstrate the ability to conduct scientific research independently. This is field-dependent. In some fields, undergrads can already be independent researchers. In other fields, even postdocs are not independent, as doing research requires funding, materials, and labor. The latter is the real problem, as professors in those fields need a steady supply of PhD candidates to do their research.

mnky9800n 4y ago

But PhD in USA doesn't require master level education but Europe does. That's a big difference. But actually I mostly agree with you. PhD should be focused on apprenticeship and nothing else.

arethuza 4y ago
The UK doesn't require a master's degree before doing a PhD - at least it didn't back in the 1980s/1990s....
red-iron-pine 4y ago
Many PhD programs in the US take ~5 years or more, and often hand out "boilerplate" Master's degrees in the process. Source: saw it happen a bunch at big state schools in California, and heard of similar things in VA, and NY schools.
- mnky9800n 4y ago
  if you do a 2 years master degree and a 4 year phd that takes 6 years. that is a reasonable expectation in Norway (Where i did my phd).
  - jonathanstrange 4y ago
    What? You can do a 2 years master degree in Norway? I studied in Germany and 2 years could only get you a B.A., 4 years was the absolute minimum for an M.A. or equivalent degree. But perhaps this has changed.
    - mnky9800n 4y ago
      the student has BS degree before they start MS. so 3 years for BS and 2 for MS.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

Yep, i never understood this either. You finish your college, you're officially an (eg.) engineer now, you can build a bridge, millions of people will use every year, and it's ok... but if you want to try out new compositions and additives of/to cement in a lab environment and measure their properties, you need a mentor, and six different unrelated courses... and preferably a well-known name to co-author your article, to get it published at all.

watwut 4y ago
> You finish your college, you're officially an (eg.) engineer now, you can build a bridge, millions of people will use every year, and it's ok As an engineer just out of the school, you wont be the one responsible for building a bridge millions of people will use every year. It takes more years to get there.
dagw 4y ago
First of all a freshly graduated engineer will never be signing off on a bridge used by millions of people a years. More importantly designing a bridge using a century old design, well understood materials, and sticking to all the well known, well documented and legally mandated best practices we have accumulated over the years is an entirely different skill than trying to come up with a novel and better way of designing or building a bridge and then conclusively proving that it is still at least as safe as the old way of building a bridge.

jltsiren 4y ago

> Here is the thing: The purpose of a PhD is to demonstrate the ability to conduct scientific research independently. This is field-dependent. In some fields, undergrads can already be independent researchers. In other fields, even postdocs are not independent, as doing research requires funding, materials, and labor. The latter is the real problem, as professors in those fields need a steady supply of PhD candidates to do their research.