3 ms·

My understanding is half the problem is Elon's insistence on trying to do it with only 2d image recognition, which isn't that reliable even in humans.

benj111 4y ago
Is it not? Yes we have 2 eyes, but if you watch TV you can process depth from various cues. Whereas if you're driving in fog and all you can see is headlights ahead, it's difficult to judge distance because you don't have those cues. I suspect 2d only scanners is a symptom of a deeper problem. It's essentially (premature) optimision for an unsolved problem. And they're underestimating the problem. How long is it before a car can read the cues of a pedestrian that may or may not be about to cross the road without looking, or a dog or a teenager. Has that car stopped because there's something blocking the way, or have they just pulled over without indicating? Is the person just ahead that is driving unusually about to pull into your lane? The long tail of edge cases is just impossibly long.
MrOwnPut 4y ago
My understanding is anything more than stereoscopic vision, like lidar, will fail in many conditions like snow/rain so you might as well never rely it. The fact that we can do it with just vision means the computer vision should be able to as well, ideally better.
- mgrund 4y ago
  As a Tesla owner with a model 3 that used to have radar until Tesla disabled it I find this argument funny. Radar failed when the front got covered in ice, that's about it. With Tesla Vision (camera only), it no longer has any active sensors so it means it doesn't really work and is generally unavailable (as in, not even cruise control is available) or highly unpredictable in conditions such as: - Rain - Fog - Snow - Low sun - When using windshield fluid - Sometimes when driving next to a truck (not sure if tunnels are still an issue as well?) - Probably more scenarios I forgot about... Having tried both setup, it's pretty clear to me that the best real-life results are with multiple sensor technologies. I have very little faith Tesla succeeds as long as they are camera-only.
  - MrOwnPut 4y ago
    Radar can be supplemental, but it has many false positives. Blind spot monitoring will go off if you pass metal poles a certain way. You could invalidate that false positive with another sensor, probably computer vision, so you should have just used only CV in the first place. You have to make sure you only use cameras because you need to drive in all scenarios. If you can't visibly see, the other humans can't either, and it's acceptable to pull over and wait. Relying on additional sensors just makes your driving less reliable when you don't have it available. Best to only use the common denominator. Less noise, more predictable. That is Tesla's thinking. If someone wants to prove them wrong, they are free to make an attempt!
    - HereBeBeasties 4y ago
      When I cross the road I mainly use my eyes, so I should ignore my ears if they hear a car coming because that signal should not be needed. I normally spot fire with my eyes by seeing the smoke, so if I'm lying in bed at night and I smell burning, I should simply ignore it because that signal should not be needed.
      - MrOwnPut 4y ago
        i prefer using just my eyes for driving vs smelling and listening for cars. unless the car is honking it's pretty hard to hear anything due to insulation, especially on the highway. but yes, humans are very good at using all the sensors they evolved with, the brain is amazing. maybe one day someone will be able to balance all of their sensors and beat Tesla, or maybe Tesla will figure it all out. can't wait to find out!
moralestapia 4y ago
That was a very short sighted decision by Karpathy. Fortunately they fired him for good and backpedaled on that. By the way, it's always astonishing how some people can screw up so bad and still come out ahead w/ money and reputation.

benj111 4y ago

Is it not? Yes we have 2 eyes, but if you watch TV you can process depth from various cues. Whereas if you're driving in fog and all you can see is headlights ahead, it's difficult to judge distance because you don't have those cues. I suspect 2d only scanners is a symptom of a deeper problem. It's essentially (premature) optimision for an unsolved problem. And they're underestimating the problem. How long is it before a car can read the cues of a pedestrian that may or may not be about to cross the road without looking, or a dog or a teenager. Has that car stopped because there's something blocking the way, or have they just pulled over without indicating? Is the person just ahead that is driving unusually about to pull into your lane? The long tail of edge cases is just impossibly long.

MrOwnPut 4y ago

My understanding is anything more than stereoscopic vision, like lidar, will fail in many conditions like snow/rain so you might as well never rely it. The fact that we can do it with just vision means the computer vision should be able to as well, ideally better.

mgrund 4y ago
As a Tesla owner with a model 3 that used to have radar until Tesla disabled it I find this argument funny. Radar failed when the front got covered in ice, that's about it. With Tesla Vision (camera only), it no longer has any active sensors so it means it doesn't really work and is generally unavailable (as in, not even cruise control is available) or highly unpredictable in conditions such as: - Rain - Fog - Snow - Low sun - When using windshield fluid - Sometimes when driving next to a truck (not sure if tunnels are still an issue as well?) - Probably more scenarios I forgot about... Having tried both setup, it's pretty clear to me that the best real-life results are with multiple sensor technologies. I have very little faith Tesla succeeds as long as they are camera-only.
- MrOwnPut 4y ago
  Radar can be supplemental, but it has many false positives. Blind spot monitoring will go off if you pass metal poles a certain way. You could invalidate that false positive with another sensor, probably computer vision, so you should have just used only CV in the first place. You have to make sure you only use cameras because you need to drive in all scenarios. If you can't visibly see, the other humans can't either, and it's acceptable to pull over and wait. Relying on additional sensors just makes your driving less reliable when you don't have it available. Best to only use the common denominator. Less noise, more predictable. That is Tesla's thinking. If someone wants to prove them wrong, they are free to make an attempt!
  - HereBeBeasties 4y ago
    When I cross the road I mainly use my eyes, so I should ignore my ears if they hear a car coming because that signal should not be needed. I normally spot fire with my eyes by seeing the smoke, so if I'm lying in bed at night and I smell burning, I should simply ignore it because that signal should not be needed.
    - MrOwnPut 4y ago
      i prefer using just my eyes for driving vs smelling and listening for cars. unless the car is honking it's pretty hard to hear anything due to insulation, especially on the highway. but yes, humans are very good at using all the sensors they evolved with, the brain is amazing. maybe one day someone will be able to balance all of their sensors and beat Tesla, or maybe Tesla will figure it all out. can't wait to find out!

moralestapia 4y ago

That was a very short sighted decision by Karpathy. Fortunately they fired him for good and backpedaled on that. By the way, it's always astonishing how some people can screw up so bad and still come out ahead w/ money and reputation.