4 ms·

Is there really an army of suckers who are rushing to waste years of their lives on doctoral degrees and the associated lengthy, underpaid indentures? The stati

Is there really an army of suckers who are rushing to waste years of their lives on doctoral degrees and the associated lengthy, underpaid indentures? The statistics would seem to say so. Or perhaps this is the natural progression of the research (especially academic research) pyramid scheme? Are we going to up the degree requirements for everything? High school to college diploma, bachelor's to master's, master's to doctorate, doctorate to ???

neodypsis 4y ago
A PhD degree in a relevant subject area (think STEM) can be a door-opener in industry, not just academia. Many interesting jobs are reserved for PhD holders, or at least, are more readily available for them.
- musicale 4y ago
  It can serve as a meal ticket in certain fields, yes. Should it? I'm not entirely sure. The opportunity cost is certainly high. In less fortunate areas you can be consigned to a permanent adjunct or postdoctoral purgatory.
  - neodypsis 4y ago
    Very true, the opportunity cost can be very high. There's always the risk of pursuing a wrong research path. At some point I've considered that a second master's in a complementary field could make more sense than a PhD.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  Beware, though, because in other fields - particularly in STEM - a PHD may actually lower your job prospects. "You're overqualified" gets old really fast if no one offers jobs that align with your proficiency level.
  - neodypsis 4y ago
    Do you see this happening in CS? I've seen positions where they don't care if you have formal training or not, then why would being a PhD holder hinder your chances?
    - DocTomoe 4y ago
      Channelling my inner HR drone here, but I've heard that all at different times from them when looking for talent: Because why would you linger around in university if you can have a serious income ten years earlier? Obviously something must be "wrong" with you, something that would make you a complicated employee that just asks for creating trouble. Better hire a CS bachelor for a third of what you would ask (risking you'd run as soon as you get some offer more to your liking), not like we're doing any revolutionary bleeding-edge stuff anyways.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
dagw 4y ago
I used to work for large civil engineering consultancy. They had lots of highly paid people with PhDs, hired because of their PhDs, doing work directly related to the thing they did their PhD in. So it obviously seems to work fine in some fields.
Beldin 4y ago
In plenty of non-USA countries, a PhD is basically a prerequisite to enter the higher echelons of government and the corporate world. Not saying it should be like that, nor that it is completely impossible to advance in those countries without. It's more that there's a glass ceiling through which you'll have to break if you don't have a PhD. And I have talked with PhD students with such backgrounds who were quite clear on that. For a (to me) surprising number of them, an academic career was not the main goal at all (not necessarily completely ruled out, but not the original main goal).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- musicale 4y ago
  Ph.D. as expensive meal ticket would seem to support the need for reform.
blackbear_ 4y ago
I'm one of those suckers and I'm glad I wasted years of my life being paid to study things I found interesting, on my own terms, without pointless meetings, impossible deadlines and unreasonable bosses, dropping projects and colleagues I did not like. Would do it again.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ryzvonusef 4y ago
My BiL is doing a PhD in CS in in a minor uni in UK (scholarship from the uni + TA/RA -ship or whatever it's called). He gets to be an indentured servant, but in the end hopefully he will have a piece of Paper from a 1st world country that will certify his already substantial CS skills. (also possibly, a Foreign nationality down the line, providing yet another piece of paper, a passport with respect) In addition, my sister and nieces get to live in a good country, and I have been very impressed by their education, even a state school in UK is miles ahead of any private school we could afford here. It's a trade he made, despite knowing he was being made a sucker, because the Upshot was going to be worth it in a decade's time. He was going to spend those years in academia (at a uni in my 3rd world country) anyways, why not get something for it? ---- I think that's how the assembly line will work in developed countries. As local citizens (like you and other commenters here) realize the two letters (Dr) are not worth the effort, uni will turn to academics from other countries, instead of actually reforming the system.
michaelt 4y ago
> Are we going to up the degree requirements for everything? High school to college diploma, bachelor's to master's, master's to doctorate, doctorate to ??? I suspect this has already happened. In 1940, 25% of the population were high school graduates and 4% had college degrees. Today, 30% of the population have college degrees, and ~4% of the population have PhD, MD, JD etc. So a college degree doesn't indicate what it once did.
- snowpid 4y ago
  which country?
seydor 4y ago
Yes there is . Unemployment is a bitch. Look at the numbers of PhD in southern europe for an example
matthewdgreen 4y ago
Twenty years ago I left a miserable software development job for a PhD program where I got to think about interesting problems all day. Nothing in my life has ever been as much fun, even despite the lousy pay. Wish I could do it all over again.
awesomeMilou 4y ago
Amen. I always tell people that want to do a PhD that, if they want to torture themselves, I can recommend some really great clubs in Berlin for that. It's probably more healthy as well, psychologically speaking.

neodypsis 4y ago

A PhD degree in a relevant subject area (think STEM) can be a door-opener in industry, not just academia. Many interesting jobs are reserved for PhD holders, or at least, are more readily available for them.

musicale 4y ago
It can serve as a meal ticket in certain fields, yes. Should it? I'm not entirely sure. The opportunity cost is certainly high. In less fortunate areas you can be consigned to a permanent adjunct or postdoctoral purgatory.
- neodypsis 4y ago
  Very true, the opportunity cost can be very high. There's always the risk of pursuing a wrong research path. At some point I've considered that a second master's in a complementary field could make more sense than a PhD.
DocTomoe 4y ago
Beware, though, because in other fields - particularly in STEM - a PHD may actually lower your job prospects. "You're overqualified" gets old really fast if no one offers jobs that align with your proficiency level.
- neodypsis 4y ago
  Do you see this happening in CS? I've seen positions where they don't care if you have formal training or not, then why would being a PhD holder hinder your chances?
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    Channelling my inner HR drone here, but I've heard that all at different times from them when looking for talent: Because why would you linger around in university if you can have a serious income ten years earlier? Obviously something must be "wrong" with you, something that would make you a complicated employee that just asks for creating trouble. Better hire a CS bachelor for a third of what you would ask (risking you'd run as soon as you get some offer more to your liking), not like we're doing any revolutionary bleeding-edge stuff anyways.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

dagw 4y ago

I used to work for large civil engineering consultancy. They had lots of highly paid people with PhDs, hired because of their PhDs, doing work directly related to the thing they did their PhD in. So it obviously seems to work fine in some fields.

Beldin 4y ago

In plenty of non-USA countries, a PhD is basically a prerequisite to enter the higher echelons of government and the corporate world. Not saying it should be like that, nor that it is completely impossible to advance in those countries without. It's more that there's a glass ceiling through which you'll have to break if you don't have a PhD. And I have talked with PhD students with such backgrounds who were quite clear on that. For a (to me) surprising number of them, an academic career was not the main goal at all (not necessarily completely ruled out, but not the original main goal).

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
musicale 4y ago
Ph.D. as expensive meal ticket would seem to support the need for reform.

blackbear_ 4y ago

I'm one of those suckers and I'm glad I wasted years of my life being paid to study things I found interesting, on my own terms, without pointless meetings, impossible deadlines and unreasonable bosses, dropping projects and colleagues I did not like. Would do it again.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ryzvonusef 4y ago

My BiL is doing a PhD in CS in in a minor uni in UK (scholarship from the uni + TA/RA -ship or whatever it's called). He gets to be an indentured servant, but in the end hopefully he will have a piece of Paper from a 1st world country that will certify his already substantial CS skills. (also possibly, a Foreign nationality down the line, providing yet another piece of paper, a passport with respect) In addition, my sister and nieces get to live in a good country, and I have been very impressed by their education, even a state school in UK is miles ahead of any private school we could afford here. It's a trade he made, despite knowing he was being made a sucker, because the Upshot was going to be worth it in a decade's time. He was going to spend those years in academia (at a uni in my 3rd world country) anyways, why not get something for it? ---- I think that's how the assembly line will work in developed countries. As local citizens (like you and other commenters here) realize the two letters (Dr) are not worth the effort, uni will turn to academics from other countries, instead of actually reforming the system.

michaelt 4y ago

> Are we going to up the degree requirements for everything? High school to college diploma, bachelor's to master's, master's to doctorate, doctorate to ??? I suspect this has already happened. In 1940, 25% of the population were high school graduates and 4% had college degrees. Today, 30% of the population have college degrees, and ~4% of the population have PhD, MD, JD etc. So a college degree doesn't indicate what it once did.

snowpid 4y ago
which country?

seydor 4y ago

Yes there is . Unemployment is a bitch. Look at the numbers of PhD in southern europe for an example

matthewdgreen 4y ago

Twenty years ago I left a miserable software development job for a PhD program where I got to think about interesting problems all day. Nothing in my life has ever been as much fun, even despite the lousy pay. Wish I could do it all over again.

awesomeMilou 4y ago

Amen. I always tell people that want to do a PhD that, if they want to torture themselves, I can recommend some really great clubs in Berlin for that. It's probably more healthy as well, psychologically speaking.