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For all the money this system costs more than conventional off-the-shelf energy efficient bulbs, switches, and dimmers, you could hire a janitor's assistant to

For all the money this system costs more than conventional off-the-shelf energy efficient bulbs, switches, and dimmers, you could hire a janitor's assistant to keep an eye out that the lights are off in the evening and turned on in the morning, and have a system that is maintainable with very little training, off-the-shelf replacement parts, and which will work for decades. But the smart system they installed came with a contract that said it would be more efficient, show proof of green credentials, and that the responsibility for solving issues lies with the contractor, so in abstract business logic it made more sense.

samwillis 4y ago
> you could hire a janitor's assistant to keep an eye out that the lights are off in the evening and turned on in the morning This is ultimately the biggest failing, and what makes this so sad. For a fraction of the cost of this system you could employee someone and have this as part of their responsibility. For automation to make sense, it can't just replace at the same cost (and certainly not cost more), it needs to be an order of magnitude saving. They may have done the math on this over say a 30 year period, but these systems never last that long. I imaging the "half life" of a IOT system is about five years.
- omegabravo 4y ago
  Control systems often last decades, longer than most employees. I've recently worked on a control system that is at least 30 years old. While you can't get the exact part any more - you can still get compatible replacements that drop in. There are still staff that are competent working with the platform. They should be upgrading over the years, unless you think working with a MS-DOS computer would be advisable today. Most education sectors use a large vendors control system with either vendor engineers, or local contractors.
  - donatj 4y ago
    Honestly, even today I would trust a system running MS-DOS far further than anything running Windows. The number of gas pumps I’ve seen blue screened and kiosks running Windows Update… The only thing a more modern computer buys you is added complexity and more to go wrong. More RAM than your process needs? More to corrupt. What percentage of crud/resident processes on a “modern” is even related to the task we are assigning this machine? Less than 1%? It’s absurd. It’s like buying a Swiss Army knife with a million attachments to build a house. You can, but you shouldn’t.
  - pjmorris 4y ago
    > Control systems often last decades, longer than most employees. ... > I've recently worked on a control system that is at least 30 years old. I've met many people who are much more than 30 years old :) And I've worked in places where people retired only after ~40+ years. And replacements are relatively easy to find, depending on the nature of the work. I think there is a reasonable debate to be had about what should be automated and what should be kept in human hands. I think we as a civilization need to sort out what the costs and opportunities are in light of the failure modes of both alternatives.
    - briandear 4y ago
      [flagged]
  - nottorp 4y ago
    > unless you think working with a MS-DOS computer would be advisable today MS-DOS doesn't even have a networking stack by default, so it's air gapped out of the box. That in case you're worried about security. Other than that, if you can control some relays from an esp32 with 4k ram, why wouldn't you be able to do it from an 8088 box with 64?
- ew6082 4y ago
  This was obviously not a good system design, but a box full of relays and PLC controller cost a whole lot less than the all-in employer cost of an extra employee. They really should also be able to turn off the lights at the breakers unless they did something exceptionally stupid like put the fire control panels on the lighting breakers.
  - GTP 4y ago
    > but a box full of relays and PLC controller cost a whole lot less than the all-in employer cost of an extra employee. Why would you need an extra employee just to turn on/off the lights? I think janitors or teachers always did that as part of the job before smart switches came around, no need to hire some "light manager".
    - Symbiote 4y ago
      Exactly: the person who checks the windows are shut, taps are closed, and locks the doors every evening can also switch the lights off.
      - yencabulator 4y ago
        BRB starting a smart cloud faucets for schools startup. (Any teachers that want to use a toilet after 5pm will need a smartphone app installed.)
    - mmsimanga 4y ago
      Having read most of the comments debating the pros and cons of the system this is an astonishingly simple solution! Sometimes I think those of us in technology look for problems to solve.
- briandear 4y ago
  > you could employee someone and have this as part of their responsibility Someone that calls in sick. Forms a union. Demands high wages for menial tasks. We need far fewer government employees. Why not literally just ask the first one in and the last one out to handle the lights? This isn’t complicated. Someone locks the doors right? Can they not turn off the lights?
geraldwhen 4y ago
They likely could not hire a janitor. My school system routinely cancels busses because they don’t pay the drivers enough. Public institutions are unwilling to pay market cost for someone to show up for a split shift, which could be 80k/year or more.
- hasbot 4y ago
  Highly highly unlikely. If that were the case, the complaint would be the school is very dirty. I was a janitor for three years in a middle school. There were five people that came in every day after school and cleaned the building. Bathrooms especially need cleaning every day. And, yes, turning off the lights were the responsibilities of every janitor. Each person had their own section and, after cleaning it, turned off the lights.
  - briandear 4y ago
    The kids should clean the damned school. https://www.good.is/amp/japan-children-clean-schools-2639606480 https://www.good.is/amp/japan-children-clean-schools-2639606...
    - yencabulator 4y ago
      Kids aren't going to operate a commercial floor waxing machine. Kids shouldn't be responsible for hygiene of toilets or kitchens. Kids shouldn't have access to stronger cleaning products. Kids doing light chores aren't going to remove the need for a cleaning crew. And your article agrees: > Japanese schools have non-teaching staff called yomushuji [...] their main job is cleaning and maintenance.
Tade0 4y ago
> you could hire a janitor's assistant to keep an eye out that the lights are off in the evening and turned on in the morning My worry is that there would be problems with getting such a person. Unemployment in the US (and quite a few other regions as well) is currently low, and "janitor's assistant" doesn't sound like a particularly glamorous career.
- miroljub 4y ago
  Call it Facility Manager, and suddenly, you'll have enough applicants, given that you don't scrooge too much on the compensation part.
imgabe 4y ago
Yeah but that won’t get you points for LEED, or comply with the energy codes for that matter.
- roxgib 4y ago
  This seems like the problem to me. Staff at the school would have probably turned off the light in their classroom at the end of each day regardless, but no credit is given unless you add this system which does the same thing for more money and probably more emissions.
stepbeek 4y ago
And have that employee be a part of the local community, rather than funneling money off to a distant corporation.
- briandear 4y ago
  [flagged]

samwillis 4y ago

> you could hire a janitor's assistant to keep an eye out that the lights are off in the evening and turned on in the morning This is ultimately the biggest failing, and what makes this so sad. For a fraction of the cost of this system you could employee someone and have this as part of their responsibility. For automation to make sense, it can't just replace at the same cost (and certainly not cost more), it needs to be an order of magnitude saving. They may have done the math on this over say a 30 year period, but these systems never last that long. I imaging the "half life" of a IOT system is about five years.

omegabravo 4y ago
Control systems often last decades, longer than most employees. I've recently worked on a control system that is at least 30 years old. While you can't get the exact part any more - you can still get compatible replacements that drop in. There are still staff that are competent working with the platform. They should be upgrading over the years, unless you think working with a MS-DOS computer would be advisable today. Most education sectors use a large vendors control system with either vendor engineers, or local contractors.
- donatj 4y ago
  Honestly, even today I would trust a system running MS-DOS far further than anything running Windows. The number of gas pumps I’ve seen blue screened and kiosks running Windows Update… The only thing a more modern computer buys you is added complexity and more to go wrong. More RAM than your process needs? More to corrupt. What percentage of crud/resident processes on a “modern” is even related to the task we are assigning this machine? Less than 1%? It’s absurd. It’s like buying a Swiss Army knife with a million attachments to build a house. You can, but you shouldn’t.
- pjmorris 4y ago
  > Control systems often last decades, longer than most employees. ... > I've recently worked on a control system that is at least 30 years old. I've met many people who are much more than 30 years old :) And I've worked in places where people retired only after ~40+ years. And replacements are relatively easy to find, depending on the nature of the work. I think there is a reasonable debate to be had about what should be automated and what should be kept in human hands. I think we as a civilization need to sort out what the costs and opportunities are in light of the failure modes of both alternatives.
  - briandear 4y ago
    [flagged]
- nottorp 4y ago
  > unless you think working with a MS-DOS computer would be advisable today MS-DOS doesn't even have a networking stack by default, so it's air gapped out of the box. That in case you're worried about security. Other than that, if you can control some relays from an esp32 with 4k ram, why wouldn't you be able to do it from an 8088 box with 64?
ew6082 4y ago
This was obviously not a good system design, but a box full of relays and PLC controller cost a whole lot less than the all-in employer cost of an extra employee. They really should also be able to turn off the lights at the breakers unless they did something exceptionally stupid like put the fire control panels on the lighting breakers.
- GTP 4y ago
  > but a box full of relays and PLC controller cost a whole lot less than the all-in employer cost of an extra employee. Why would you need an extra employee just to turn on/off the lights? I think janitors or teachers always did that as part of the job before smart switches came around, no need to hire some "light manager".
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    Exactly: the person who checks the windows are shut, taps are closed, and locks the doors every evening can also switch the lights off.
    - yencabulator 4y ago
      BRB starting a smart cloud faucets for schools startup. (Any teachers that want to use a toilet after 5pm will need a smartphone app installed.)
  - mmsimanga 4y ago
    Having read most of the comments debating the pros and cons of the system this is an astonishingly simple solution! Sometimes I think those of us in technology look for problems to solve.
briandear 4y ago
> you could employee someone and have this as part of their responsibility Someone that calls in sick. Forms a union. Demands high wages for menial tasks. We need far fewer government employees. Why not literally just ask the first one in and the last one out to handle the lights? This isn’t complicated. Someone locks the doors right? Can they not turn off the lights?

geraldwhen 4y ago

They likely could not hire a janitor. My school system routinely cancels busses because they don’t pay the drivers enough. Public institutions are unwilling to pay market cost for someone to show up for a split shift, which could be 80k/year or more.

hasbot 4y ago
Highly highly unlikely. If that were the case, the complaint would be the school is very dirty. I was a janitor for three years in a middle school. There were five people that came in every day after school and cleaned the building. Bathrooms especially need cleaning every day. And, yes, turning off the lights were the responsibilities of every janitor. Each person had their own section and, after cleaning it, turned off the lights.
- briandear 4y ago
  The kids should clean the damned school. https://www.good.is/amp/japan-children-clean-schools-2639606480 https://www.good.is/amp/japan-children-clean-schools-2639606...
  - yencabulator 4y ago
    Kids aren't going to operate a commercial floor waxing machine. Kids shouldn't be responsible for hygiene of toilets or kitchens. Kids shouldn't have access to stronger cleaning products. Kids doing light chores aren't going to remove the need for a cleaning crew. And your article agrees: > Japanese schools have non-teaching staff called yomushuji [...] their main job is cleaning and maintenance.

Tade0 4y ago

> you could hire a janitor's assistant to keep an eye out that the lights are off in the evening and turned on in the morning My worry is that there would be problems with getting such a person. Unemployment in the US (and quite a few other regions as well) is currently low, and "janitor's assistant" doesn't sound like a particularly glamorous career.

miroljub 4y ago
Call it Facility Manager, and suddenly, you'll have enough applicants, given that you don't scrooge too much on the compensation part.

imgabe 4y ago

Yeah but that won’t get you points for LEED, or comply with the energy codes for that matter.

roxgib 4y ago
This seems like the problem to me. Staff at the school would have probably turned off the light in their classroom at the end of each day regardless, but no credit is given unless you add this system which does the same thing for more money and probably more emissions.

stepbeek 4y ago

And have that employee be a part of the local community, rather than funneling money off to a distant corporation.

briandear 4y ago
[flagged]