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Leaving hazy judgement calls up to the police for enforcement, at least in the US, has not fared particularly well for non-white people. See, for example, the h

Leaving hazy judgement calls up to the police for enforcement, at least in the US, has not fared particularly well for non-white people. See, for example, the history of enforcement of "jaywalking", a "crime" which was recently decriminalized in California for precisely that reason. So I wouldn't advocate for a system where we just "let police officers make that call" regarding whether a driver is going at a safe speed. At least not in the US. And "design speed" may be an interesting or useful thing to think about for roads that are far away from houses or business, like highways. But if you're near those things then it suddenly matters a lot less whether the speed is safe for the driver, and a lot more whether it's safe for the other important road users: pedestrians and bicyclists/other micro-mobility users. In those cases, speed limits absolutely make sense. And bizarrely, at least in the bay area, it seems like those are areas where speed enforcement (and other traffic enforcement) are practically non-existent. So I have to disagree. I know you're talking about highways, but even there I'd rather have something closer to an objective standard being enforced, rather than the simple will of the police.

bell-cot 4y ago
> ...has not fared particularly well for non-white people... I (old white male) have not yet had problems. But certainly I know white people who have - best-guess because they were young, or female, or "looked too rich or too poor" for the area in which they were driving. And from second-hand accounts, a fair number of police officers have "law unto themselves" pet theories about what sorts of people they should target for tough enforcement, or let off with a warning.
- brenns10 4y ago
  True, I didn't mean to imply that race was the only factor for unfair enforcement. Just one well-documented example. All the more reason not to add more subjective criteria for enforcement.
bluefirebrand 4y ago
> Leaving hazy judgement calls up to the police for enforcement, at least in the US, has not fared particularly well for non-white people. See, for example, the history of enforcement of "jaywalking", a "crime" which was recently decriminalized in California for precisely that reason You will notice that this wasn't solved by setting up enforcement cameras on every street that ticket all jaywalkers equally.
- brenns10 4y ago
  Yeah, it was decriminalized because jaywalking was a crime invented by the auto industry and there's no real harm in it, provided that a person crosses a street when it is safe to do so (this is part of the new law, it's still illegal to cross when you cause a risk of crash). On the other hand, traffic rules protect public safety. Even and automated enforcement (provided that there's no entrapment for revenue, something that is dangerous and does happen with, e.g. red light cameras) causes people to have safer driving habits. After all, driving is not a right, it's a privilege to operate heavy, dangerous machinery in public. Drivers should be held to a high standard of safety.
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago
    > On the other hand, traffic rules protect public safety The stats show that society is the safest it's ever been. At some point we are going to realize that allowing more and more surveillance and automated enforcement into our lives in the interest of public safety is really giving diminishing returns on actual safety, but tons of returns on authoritarianism. Yes, I'm aware that car crashes are still one of the leading causes of death, and therefore one of the least safe activities you can do. Personally I think the solution is better public transit and such. Fewer cars on the road means fewer low skilled or wildly reckless drivers too.

bell-cot 4y ago

> ...has not fared particularly well for non-white people... I (old white male) have not yet had problems. But certainly I know white people who have - best-guess because they were young, or female, or "looked too rich or too poor" for the area in which they were driving. And from second-hand accounts, a fair number of police officers have "law unto themselves" pet theories about what sorts of people they should target for tough enforcement, or let off with a warning.

brenns10 4y ago
True, I didn't mean to imply that race was the only factor for unfair enforcement. Just one well-documented example. All the more reason not to add more subjective criteria for enforcement.

bluefirebrand 4y ago

> Leaving hazy judgement calls up to the police for enforcement, at least in the US, has not fared particularly well for non-white people. See, for example, the history of enforcement of "jaywalking", a "crime" which was recently decriminalized in California for precisely that reason You will notice that this wasn't solved by setting up enforcement cameras on every street that ticket all jaywalkers equally.

brenns10 4y ago
Yeah, it was decriminalized because jaywalking was a crime invented by the auto industry and there's no real harm in it, provided that a person crosses a street when it is safe to do so (this is part of the new law, it's still illegal to cross when you cause a risk of crash). On the other hand, traffic rules protect public safety. Even and automated enforcement (provided that there's no entrapment for revenue, something that is dangerous and does happen with, e.g. red light cameras) causes people to have safer driving habits. After all, driving is not a right, it's a privilege to operate heavy, dangerous machinery in public. Drivers should be held to a high standard of safety.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  > On the other hand, traffic rules protect public safety The stats show that society is the safest it's ever been. At some point we are going to realize that allowing more and more surveillance and automated enforcement into our lives in the interest of public safety is really giving diminishing returns on actual safety, but tons of returns on authoritarianism. Yes, I'm aware that car crashes are still one of the leading causes of death, and therefore one of the least safe activities you can do. Personally I think the solution is better public transit and such. Fewer cars on the road means fewer low skilled or wildly reckless drivers too.