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Americans are in so much denial about how rich their country is. I'm in small town New Zealand, the kind of place certain kinds of Americans fantasize about im

Americans are in so much denial about how rich their country is. I'm in small town New Zealand, the kind of place certain kinds of Americans fantasize about immigrating to, especially when there's a republican president. Seeing people walk around barefoot while shopping is common. The majority of people burn firewood and/or coal to keep warm in the winter. And I'd say 95% of people have never lived in a temperature controlled house with a thermostat. Everything costs more money - electronics, fuel, food, accommodation - and wages are universally lower. And this in one of the most developed parts of the planet. Think about how the US must compare to middle and low income countries. You'd be mind blown.

adam_arthur 4y ago
Countries by median income: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income One advantage the US has is being the world's reserve currency. It tends to give the USD a lot of strength/more purchasing power in other countries.
- refurb 4y ago
  How does being the reserve currency drive local wages higher?
  - jacurtis 4y ago
    It doesn't drive wages higher, but it improves buying power which is an indirect raise
    - refurb 4y ago
      Then why are countries who aren't the reserve currency also have a more valuable currency? In some cases more valuable than the USD?
      - adam_arthur 4y ago
        Whether the currency is <1 or >1 relative to the USD is not that important... it's largely a function of the money supply. 1 Euro is worth more than 1 USD, but goods in Europe may still cost more in USD terms than equivalent goods in the US. Or salaries could be lower (which is true as of today)
        refurb 4y ago
        But that doesn't follow. 1. US has reserve currency status 2. That makes the purchasing power of the USD stronger (because USD > other currency) 3. Citizens benefit from that Ok, but other currencies have even stronger purchasing power than the USD.
        adam_arthur 4y ago
        To put it simply: In an alternate world where USD was not the reserve currency, PPP of US based wages would be lower, all else equal. The actual nominal conversion rate of the currency is pretty meaningless. The fact that Yen is 100 to 1ish to the dollar is also not very meaningful. They're all just nominal values. Only the exchange rate relative to fundamentals matters. USD gets stronger exchange rates relative to the fundamentals of the currency (because many foreign countries and citizens also hold USD, not just locals). Which is mostly untrue for other currencies. PPP adjusted salaries are lower everywhere else in the world, partially, but not wholly for this reason.
        refurb 4y ago
        You haven't actually proven that US' higher PPP is solely due to its reserve currency status. Other countries who are not reserve currencies have higher purchasing power than USD. So if the US wasn't the reserve currency, there is no reason it couldn't do the same. You're making a claim that you haven't backed up.
        adam_arthur 4y ago
  - adam_arthur 4y ago
    If the value of USD is higher relative to an alternative currency, then you can earn USD in the US and visit a foreign country, convert USD to local currency, and achieve higher purchasing power relative to local wages there. Or simply buy foreign produced goods cheaper (e.g. Chinese produced goods on Amazon). e.g. Exchange rate induced deflation
  - tekla 4y ago
    It attracts outside investment since being the reserve currency is at the very least the bedrock of stability
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      well, switch it around, and I'm not just playing with words, there's cause and effect: The bedrock of stability (plus large size, i.e. Switzerland or Norway are not going to be it) is the reserve currency.
- jacurtis 4y ago
  The median income in tech (most people reading this site) is at least 4x that median, which is even more impactful.
  - kfajdsl 4y ago
    The median income in tech is $200,000?
    - jacurtis 4y ago
      I was thinking $40k x 4 which is $160k. I just did a quick search and found several reputable sites saying the average FAANG salary is $230 (which is 5.75x). According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), the mean software engineering salary was $136,230 in 2022. So you're right thats only 3.5x. Notice thats the mean. I suspect the median is actually slightly higher than the mean. So i'm guesstimating here. But I stand by my rough estimate.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Why would you suspect the median is higher than the mean? Almost all statistics related to wealth and income I have seen indicate power law distributions, which would mean median is lower than mean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_curve
  - nl 4y ago
    This is so far from true it's hard to work out if it is supposed to be trolling or just ignorant. The median salary of FAANG programmers in the Bay Area might be 4x that median. But I assure you that "most people reading this site" are not "FAANG programmers in the Bay Area" even if at times it might seem like they are.
- lmm 4y ago
  The US number is also artificially inflated by their unusual healthcare system - in most developed countries healthcare is paid for from taxes or mandatory insurance (which is deducted from that measure), whereas in the US it's considered to be paid from disposable income.
  - theGnuMe 4y ago
    Nah FSA to pay copays is tax free as are standard premiums. So you can pay your copays tax free the problem is you have to get your utilization correct since it is use it or lose it.
    - lmm 4y ago
      They're tax free but they're still considered part of your disposable income since you can choose not to pay them.
tw98521358 4y ago
Yeah but are they happier? None of that shit means anything if you are in debt stressed working 2 jobs and can’t even get childcare or healthcare for you kid
someotherperson 4y ago
Groceries are about as expensive, if not more, than new Zealand. Chicken breast is about NZD$16-17/kg, so minimum wage workers in the US need to work about an hour and a half to afford it. This is compared to minimum wage workers in NZ who only need to work about 45 minutes to afford the same. This is not taking into account things like healthcare, crime and similar.
- majormajor 4y ago
  I just took a quick look at the site for the grocery store near me in big-city-California-USA: I can get 3-and-a-bit pounds of non-frozen chicken breast for $9.50 right now (2.99/lb). Often frozen is a bit cheaper. Looks like this is equivalent to 4.66nzd/0.45kg or $10.35NZD/kg, so if that "NZD$16-17/kg" is a NZ price, it's over 50% higher than that. CA minimum wage is $15.50/hr, so that would get me almost 2.36kg of chicken breast an hour. NZ minimum wage appears to be 21.2NZD/hr, which would get me 2kg of chicken at US prices; and just 1.3ish at that 16-17 price point. EDIT: Of course, not all of the US has CA's minimum wage. But the wealthy parts of the US are certainly quite wealthy globally, with still-low-globally prices for many things.
- acchow 4y ago
  Hmm boneless, skinless chicken breast is US$9/kg at Costco San Francisco. At SF’s minimum wage, that’s 31 minutes
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  First result from Walmart (US) for chicken breast - about 10 NZD/Kg. [0] First result from Countdown (NZ) - 15 NZD/Kg [1] [0] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Freshness-Guaranteed-Boneless-Chicken-Breasts-Family-Pack-4-7-6-25-lb/27935840?athbdg=L1200 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Freshness-Guaranteed-Boneless-Chi... [1] https://www.countdown.co.nz/shop/productdetails?stockcode=73033&name=countdown-chicken-breast-skinless-boneless-nz-small-pk https://www.countdown.co.nz/shop/productdetails?stockcode=73...
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >Groceries are about as expensive, if not more, than new Zealand. If this were actually true as opposed to nonsense, there wouldn't have been the nationwide excitement over the recent opening of New Zealand's first Costco (complete with a visit from PM Ardern), and endless discussion in the press over how it would hopefully lower grocery prices.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
erik 4y ago
While I don't disagree with your general point, central heating/cooling is more about climate than wealth. New Zealand is pretty temperate. Also, don't people walk around barefoot because they prefer to and it is accepted?
- arp242 4y ago
  The south of New Zealand is colder than Western Europe, and the difference in housing quality is huge (poor heating, no isolation beyond the paint on the wall). I've definitely been cold more in NZ than anywhere else, and I don't get cold all that easily.
  - TheCoelacanth 4y ago
    Winter in southern NZ is comparable to winter in Paris for nighttime temperatures and warmer for daytime temperatures[1]. New Zealand as a whole has warmer winters than the French Riviera[2]. [1] https://www.worlddata.info/climate-comparison.php?r1=fr-ile-de-france&r2=nz-southland https://www.worlddata.info/climate-comparison.php?r1=fr-ile-... [2] https://www.worlddata.info/climate-comparison.php?r1=fr-cote-dazur&r2=new-zealand https://www.worlddata.info/climate-comparison.php?r1=fr-cote...
    - arp242 4y ago
      Your link shows that Southland is significantly colder than France for much of the year. No, the winters don't get freezing cold; it's not Iceland. But it never gets very hot either. Overall, it's colder than Western Europe. Comparing "New Zealand as a whole" doesn't make any sense; the differences in the country are too large. It's like drawing conclusions about the climate of one state based on the United States as a whole (and even within some states there can be pretty large differences).
  - fy20 4y ago
    That sounds like parts of Spain. I lived in the south of Spain for a winter as I wanted to escape true winter. I live in Lithuania, and winter to us means -25c. My thought process was 'Spain is warm'. While I was there I think the coldest it got outside was 3c one night, in the day it was above 15c every day and almost all days were sunny. The thing is though the apartment had no insulation and the windows didn't close properly (I could put my finger through the gap). It wasn't that it was a run down apartment, the rest of it was really nice (amazing marble courtyard) - this is just how housing is there. As such inside - with a electric heater on all the time we were home - it barely reached 18c. It was also very humid as it was by the sea, so the whole time we were so cold. Compare this to where we live in Lithuania, where we don't even turn the heating on until it reaches freezing outside. Winters in Spain are not warm.
WalterBright 4y ago
Think of all those millions walking thousands of miles just for a chance to get into the US.
arp242 4y ago
The barefoot thing is just cultural, not because people can't afford shoes. The state of housing in NZ is indeed abysmal; I don't know why it's so bad. Being a small isolated country probably plays part in the high cost of living; not so easy to import (or export) physical goods. It's really hard to directly compare "wealth" between countries though, as many aspects of the system are often different; healthcare and general social security are the obvious things to point out there.
- Grimburger 4y ago
  > The state of housing in NZ is indeed abysmal; I don't know why it's so bad. > Being a small isolated country probably plays part in the high cost of living; not so easy to import (or export) physical goods. It's got nothing to do with the cost of goods or labour. NZ house prices are basically all zoning, the underlying cost of building a house is nothing compared to the value of the land while there's empty fields surrounding it that you can't even park a caravan on.
- jemmyw 4y ago
  > The state of housing in NZ is indeed abysmal; I don't know why it's so bad. There are plenty of factors. Most of the country has reasonably temperate weather all year round, especially on the more populous north island. Then you have the just get on with it throw it together attitude that used to dominate the rural areas, so you're starting from a really low point. Starting from that low point it seems that its been hard to raise the bar. The cost of materials must play a part there. There's also been ongoing and continual issues with the companies that actually do the building and/or manufacture the materials being both intertwined and in monopoly positions. I just had my house extended. Any new windows had to be double glazed, which is only a recent change. In many European countries its now triple. The new parts of my house are considerably warmer, and the original build was only 15 years old! > The barefoot thing is just cultural, not because people can't afford shoes. Yeah, I have a hard time persuading my kids to wear shoes. He could be describing my town and its not a poor area at all.
  - arp242 4y ago
    > There are plenty of factors. Most of the country has reasonably temperate weather all year round, especially on the more populous north island. I've been cold more in NZ than anywhere else, and I don't get cold all that easily. Only lived in South Island though, where the average is colder than Western Europe (but the housing much worse). North Island is indeed warmer. Maybe (part of) the problem is just that "one size fits all" set of laws doesn't really suffice if there are fairly significant differences in e.g. climate within a country.
LightHugger 4y ago
Urban poverty is something else entirely, man. You dont have the option of burning firewood or coal to keep warm in the winter. Or somewhere to burn it. You don't have the option to go barefoot, because your feet will be destroyed by broken glass, needles, and razorblades. But it's okay. America is rich, and im sure the silly poor americans are just complaining for no reason.
- mc32 4y ago
  It essentially boils down to: would you want to be near the bottom in a rich country or near the top in a poor country? People hate being poor relative to their neighbors even if in real terms they are better off than people near but not at the top in poor places. Also, people don't realize that Mexicans are richer then Ukrainians. The Ukraine is poor and but for few urban areas, so is much of Russia.
woodruffw 4y ago
You're right that the US is a fabulously wealthy country. Still, this might be a misguided comparison: the least developed region of NZ still has a higher HDI than two US states[1][2], without considering territories. If you decided to wander around West Virginia (as I have), you'd see plenty of people burning coal and/or firewood for heat in winter (and WV winters are much harsher than NZ ones, from what I know about NZ). You'll also see extreme indigence of a sort that's otherwise almost completely invisible in the US. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_New_Zealand_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_New_Zealand...
- whendoyoushrink 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c... > Household Disposable Income per capita (including social transfers in kind) 1 United States 62,300 19 New Zealand 32,600 (2019) Roughly 50%. I can't find similar data for the bad pockets of America.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    The closest available metric is probably the BEA's PCPI[1], which is $42,315 for WV. So about 30% more, but I think a more fair metric would probably adjust for differences in social entitlements and welfare. (Per capita for both also doesn't tell us much about distributions, or even sheer numbers: the two states that have lower HDIs than the least developed region of NZ have nearly as many people as all of NZ.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_adjusted_per_capita_personal_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_adjuste...
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      It's at least better to take the median: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median_equivalent_adult_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...
jemmyw 4y ago
I live in small town NZ as well. And I've also lived in CA and travelled quite a bit of the states, and lived in a couple of places in Europe. NZ is kind of expensive and cheap at the same time. It's hard to describe exactly. When we lived in CA we had more money coming in, but much more going out. For example, schools. NZ and the US both have free schooling. But to get the nice relaxed school that we liked we paid a lot more in the US. NZ has free healthcare. People complain about it a lot, but it's been good to me with various ailments, and easier to access than the US where we had good health insurance. Although the dentistry was better. Or like dining out. Cheap place in the US is cheaper than a cheap place in NZ. But eating out at a nicer place is cheaper by a lot in NZ. It's like there's a higher starting point but lower variance. When it comes down to it, we loved our time in the USA, but we love NZ more and felt like life was better on about half the income. I also realise I know you, we've chatted online before wave
- bialpio 4y ago
  > It's like there's a higher starting point but lower variance. I remember a friend referred to this along the lines of there not being a medium-grade products in the US. There are cheap and crappy things, & good and expensive things. After living in USA for a while now, I think I agree.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  I also realise I know you, we've chatted online before wave Functional Programming Auckland? Have we met?
  - jemmyw 4y ago
    No but it must have been another chat group. JsNz or devnz.. Haven't met in person. I've got you as a 1st on linked in and I don't tend to connect unless I have spoken with.
    - LAC-Tech 4y ago
      Oh yeah hey Jeremy! Yeah devnz was not my cup of tea lol, I think I only lasted a few weeks. Good to see you around.
p1necone 4y ago
Walking around barefoot is just a New Zealand culture thing. I make a decent software engineer salary and own shoes and I still walk around barefoot in public a lot because I like it more and it's socially acceptable. Someone got kicked out of a mall for being barefoot a few years ago and it was BIG NEWS https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/108772902/barefoot-woman-ordered-to-leave-auckland-mall-and-only-come-back-with-shoes-on https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/108772902/barefoot-woman-or... 95% of people in small rural NZ towns might heat their homes with wood fires, but that's not the norm in most parts of the country - heat pumps are very common (and required by new rental standards: https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/about-tenancy-services/news/healthy-homes-standards-announced/ https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/about-tenancy-services/news/heal...). I'm not saying you're being intentionally dishonest, but if you've only ever lived in a small rural town here your perspective of the country is probably a bit warped. (And I imagine small rural towns in America are probably not actually much different).
- roca 4y ago
  I've been kicked out of a mall for not wearing shoes. I guess I should have kicked up a fuss.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  Have higher standards.
theGnuMe 4y ago
Plenty of poor towns here in America. I encourage you to watch the Frontline special growing up poor in America https://www.pbs.org/video/growing-up-poor-in-america-z4g8k5/ https://www.pbs.org/video/growing-up-poor-in-america-z4g8k5/

adam_arthur 4y ago

Countries by median income: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income One advantage the US has is being the world's reserve currency. It tends to give the USD a lot of strength/more purchasing power in other countries.

refurb 4y ago
How does being the reserve currency drive local wages higher?
- jacurtis 4y ago
  It doesn't drive wages higher, but it improves buying power which is an indirect raise
  - refurb 4y ago
    Then why are countries who aren't the reserve currency also have a more valuable currency? In some cases more valuable than the USD?
    - adam_arthur 4y ago
      Whether the currency is <1 or >1 relative to the USD is not that important... it's largely a function of the money supply. 1 Euro is worth more than 1 USD, but goods in Europe may still cost more in USD terms than equivalent goods in the US. Or salaries could be lower (which is true as of today)
      - refurb 4y ago
        But that doesn't follow. 1. US has reserve currency status 2. That makes the purchasing power of the USD stronger (because USD > other currency) 3. Citizens benefit from that Ok, but other currencies have even stronger purchasing power than the USD.
        adam_arthur 4y ago
        To put it simply: In an alternate world where USD was not the reserve currency, PPP of US based wages would be lower, all else equal. The actual nominal conversion rate of the currency is pretty meaningless. The fact that Yen is 100 to 1ish to the dollar is also not very meaningful. They're all just nominal values. Only the exchange rate relative to fundamentals matters. USD gets stronger exchange rates relative to the fundamentals of the currency (because many foreign countries and citizens also hold USD, not just locals). Which is mostly untrue for other currencies. PPP adjusted salaries are lower everywhere else in the world, partially, but not wholly for this reason.
        refurb 4y ago
        You haven't actually proven that US' higher PPP is solely due to its reserve currency status. Other countries who are not reserve currencies have higher purchasing power than USD. So if the US wasn't the reserve currency, there is no reason it couldn't do the same. You're making a claim that you haven't backed up.
        adam_arthur 4y ago
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  If the value of USD is higher relative to an alternative currency, then you can earn USD in the US and visit a foreign country, convert USD to local currency, and achieve higher purchasing power relative to local wages there. Or simply buy foreign produced goods cheaper (e.g. Chinese produced goods on Amazon). e.g. Exchange rate induced deflation
- tekla 4y ago
  It attracts outside investment since being the reserve currency is at the very least the bedrock of stability
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    well, switch it around, and I'm not just playing with words, there's cause and effect: The bedrock of stability (plus large size, i.e. Switzerland or Norway are not going to be it) is the reserve currency.
jacurtis 4y ago
The median income in tech (most people reading this site) is at least 4x that median, which is even more impactful.
- kfajdsl 4y ago
  The median income in tech is $200,000?
  - jacurtis 4y ago
    I was thinking $40k x 4 which is $160k. I just did a quick search and found several reputable sites saying the average FAANG salary is $230 (which is 5.75x). According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), the mean software engineering salary was $136,230 in 2022. So you're right thats only 3.5x. Notice thats the mean. I suspect the median is actually slightly higher than the mean. So i'm guesstimating here. But I stand by my rough estimate.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Why would you suspect the median is higher than the mean? Almost all statistics related to wealth and income I have seen indicate power law distributions, which would mean median is lower than mean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_curve
- nl 4y ago
  This is so far from true it's hard to work out if it is supposed to be trolling or just ignorant. The median salary of FAANG programmers in the Bay Area might be 4x that median. But I assure you that "most people reading this site" are not "FAANG programmers in the Bay Area" even if at times it might seem like they are.
lmm 4y ago
The US number is also artificially inflated by their unusual healthcare system - in most developed countries healthcare is paid for from taxes or mandatory insurance (which is deducted from that measure), whereas in the US it's considered to be paid from disposable income.
- theGnuMe 4y ago
  Nah FSA to pay copays is tax free as are standard premiums. So you can pay your copays tax free the problem is you have to get your utilization correct since it is use it or lose it.
  - lmm 4y ago
    They're tax free but they're still considered part of your disposable income since you can choose not to pay them.

tw98521358 4y ago

Yeah but are they happier? None of that shit means anything if you are in debt stressed working 2 jobs and can’t even get childcare or healthcare for you kid

someotherperson 4y ago

Groceries are about as expensive, if not more, than new Zealand. Chicken breast is about NZD$16-17/kg, so minimum wage workers in the US need to work about an hour and a half to afford it. This is compared to minimum wage workers in NZ who only need to work about 45 minutes to afford the same. This is not taking into account things like healthcare, crime and similar.

majormajor 4y ago
I just took a quick look at the site for the grocery store near me in big-city-California-USA: I can get 3-and-a-bit pounds of non-frozen chicken breast for $9.50 right now (2.99/lb). Often frozen is a bit cheaper. Looks like this is equivalent to 4.66nzd/0.45kg or $10.35NZD/kg, so if that "NZD$16-17/kg" is a NZ price, it's over 50% higher than that. CA minimum wage is $15.50/hr, so that would get me almost 2.36kg of chicken breast an hour. NZ minimum wage appears to be 21.2NZD/hr, which would get me 2kg of chicken at US prices; and just 1.3ish at that 16-17 price point. EDIT: Of course, not all of the US has CA's minimum wage. But the wealthy parts of the US are certainly quite wealthy globally, with still-low-globally prices for many things.
acchow 4y ago
Hmm boneless, skinless chicken breast is US$9/kg at Costco San Francisco. At SF’s minimum wage, that’s 31 minutes
LAC-Tech 4y ago
First result from Walmart (US) for chicken breast - about 10 NZD/Kg. [0] First result from Countdown (NZ) - 15 NZD/Kg [1] [0] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Freshness-Guaranteed-Boneless-Chicken-Breasts-Family-Pack-4-7-6-25-lb/27935840?athbdg=L1200 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Freshness-Guaranteed-Boneless-Chi... [1] https://www.countdown.co.nz/shop/productdetails?stockcode=73033&name=countdown-chicken-breast-skinless-boneless-nz-small-pk https://www.countdown.co.nz/shop/productdetails?stockcode=73...
TMWNN 4y ago
>Groceries are about as expensive, if not more, than new Zealand. If this were actually true as opposed to nonsense, there wouldn't have been the nationwide excitement over the recent opening of New Zealand's first Costco (complete with a visit from PM Ardern), and endless discussion in the press over how it would hopefully lower grocery prices.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

erik 4y ago

While I don't disagree with your general point, central heating/cooling is more about climate than wealth. New Zealand is pretty temperate. Also, don't people walk around barefoot because they prefer to and it is accepted?

arp242 4y ago
The south of New Zealand is colder than Western Europe, and the difference in housing quality is huge (poor heating, no isolation beyond the paint on the wall). I've definitely been cold more in NZ than anywhere else, and I don't get cold all that easily.
- TheCoelacanth 4y ago
  Winter in southern NZ is comparable to winter in Paris for nighttime temperatures and warmer for daytime temperatures[1]. New Zealand as a whole has warmer winters than the French Riviera[2]. [1] https://www.worlddata.info/climate-comparison.php?r1=fr-ile-de-france&r2=nz-southland https://www.worlddata.info/climate-comparison.php?r1=fr-ile-... [2] https://www.worlddata.info/climate-comparison.php?r1=fr-cote-dazur&r2=new-zealand https://www.worlddata.info/climate-comparison.php?r1=fr-cote...
  - arp242 4y ago
    Your link shows that Southland is significantly colder than France for much of the year. No, the winters don't get freezing cold; it's not Iceland. But it never gets very hot either. Overall, it's colder than Western Europe. Comparing "New Zealand as a whole" doesn't make any sense; the differences in the country are too large. It's like drawing conclusions about the climate of one state based on the United States as a whole (and even within some states there can be pretty large differences).
- fy20 4y ago
  That sounds like parts of Spain. I lived in the south of Spain for a winter as I wanted to escape true winter. I live in Lithuania, and winter to us means -25c. My thought process was 'Spain is warm'. While I was there I think the coldest it got outside was 3c one night, in the day it was above 15c every day and almost all days were sunny. The thing is though the apartment had no insulation and the windows didn't close properly (I could put my finger through the gap). It wasn't that it was a run down apartment, the rest of it was really nice (amazing marble courtyard) - this is just how housing is there. As such inside - with a electric heater on all the time we were home - it barely reached 18c. It was also very humid as it was by the sea, so the whole time we were so cold. Compare this to where we live in Lithuania, where we don't even turn the heating on until it reaches freezing outside. Winters in Spain are not warm.

WalterBright 4y ago

Think of all those millions walking thousands of miles just for a chance to get into the US.

arp242 4y ago

The barefoot thing is just cultural, not because people can't afford shoes. The state of housing in NZ is indeed abysmal; I don't know why it's so bad. Being a small isolated country probably plays part in the high cost of living; not so easy to import (or export) physical goods. It's really hard to directly compare "wealth" between countries though, as many aspects of the system are often different; healthcare and general social security are the obvious things to point out there.

Grimburger 4y ago
> The state of housing in NZ is indeed abysmal; I don't know why it's so bad. > Being a small isolated country probably plays part in the high cost of living; not so easy to import (or export) physical goods. It's got nothing to do with the cost of goods or labour. NZ house prices are basically all zoning, the underlying cost of building a house is nothing compared to the value of the land while there's empty fields surrounding it that you can't even park a caravan on.
jemmyw 4y ago
> The state of housing in NZ is indeed abysmal; I don't know why it's so bad. There are plenty of factors. Most of the country has reasonably temperate weather all year round, especially on the more populous north island. Then you have the just get on with it throw it together attitude that used to dominate the rural areas, so you're starting from a really low point. Starting from that low point it seems that its been hard to raise the bar. The cost of materials must play a part there. There's also been ongoing and continual issues with the companies that actually do the building and/or manufacture the materials being both intertwined and in monopoly positions. I just had my house extended. Any new windows had to be double glazed, which is only a recent change. In many European countries its now triple. The new parts of my house are considerably warmer, and the original build was only 15 years old! > The barefoot thing is just cultural, not because people can't afford shoes. Yeah, I have a hard time persuading my kids to wear shoes. He could be describing my town and its not a poor area at all.
- arp242 4y ago
  > There are plenty of factors. Most of the country has reasonably temperate weather all year round, especially on the more populous north island. I've been cold more in NZ than anywhere else, and I don't get cold all that easily. Only lived in South Island though, where the average is colder than Western Europe (but the housing much worse). North Island is indeed warmer. Maybe (part of) the problem is just that "one size fits all" set of laws doesn't really suffice if there are fairly significant differences in e.g. climate within a country.

LightHugger 4y ago

Urban poverty is something else entirely, man. You dont have the option of burning firewood or coal to keep warm in the winter. Or somewhere to burn it. You don't have the option to go barefoot, because your feet will be destroyed by broken glass, needles, and razorblades. But it's okay. America is rich, and im sure the silly poor americans are just complaining for no reason.

mc32 4y ago
It essentially boils down to: would you want to be near the bottom in a rich country or near the top in a poor country? People hate being poor relative to their neighbors even if in real terms they are better off than people near but not at the top in poor places. Also, people don't realize that Mexicans are richer then Ukrainians. The Ukraine is poor and but for few urban areas, so is much of Russia.

woodruffw 4y ago

You're right that the US is a fabulously wealthy country. Still, this might be a misguided comparison: the least developed region of NZ still has a higher HDI than two US states[1][2], without considering territories. If you decided to wander around West Virginia (as I have), you'd see plenty of people burning coal and/or firewood for heat in winter (and WV winters are much harsher than NZ ones, from what I know about NZ). You'll also see extreme indigence of a sort that's otherwise almost completely invisible in the US. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_New_Zealand_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_New_Zealand...

whendoyoushrink 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c... > Household Disposable Income per capita (including social transfers in kind) 1 United States 62,300 19 New Zealand 32,600 (2019) Roughly 50%. I can't find similar data for the bad pockets of America.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  The closest available metric is probably the BEA's PCPI[1], which is $42,315 for WV. So about 30% more, but I think a more fair metric would probably adjust for differences in social entitlements and welfare. (Per capita for both also doesn't tell us much about distributions, or even sheer numbers: the two states that have lower HDIs than the least developed region of NZ have nearly as many people as all of NZ.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_adjusted_per_capita_personal_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_adjuste...
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    It's at least better to take the median: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median_equivalent_adult_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...

jemmyw 4y ago

I live in small town NZ as well. And I've also lived in CA and travelled quite a bit of the states, and lived in a couple of places in Europe. NZ is kind of expensive and cheap at the same time. It's hard to describe exactly. When we lived in CA we had more money coming in, but much more going out. For example, schools. NZ and the US both have free schooling. But to get the nice relaxed school that we liked we paid a lot more in the US. NZ has free healthcare. People complain about it a lot, but it's been good to me with various ailments, and easier to access than the US where we had good health insurance. Although the dentistry was better. Or like dining out. Cheap place in the US is cheaper than a cheap place in NZ. But eating out at a nicer place is cheaper by a lot in NZ. It's like there's a higher starting point but lower variance. When it comes down to it, we loved our time in the USA, but we love NZ more and felt like life was better on about half the income. I also realise I know you, we've chatted online before wave

bialpio 4y ago
> It's like there's a higher starting point but lower variance. I remember a friend referred to this along the lines of there not being a medium-grade products in the US. There are cheap and crappy things, & good and expensive things. After living in USA for a while now, I think I agree.
LAC-Tech 4y ago
I also realise I know you, we've chatted online before wave Functional Programming Auckland? Have we met?
- jemmyw 4y ago
  No but it must have been another chat group. JsNz or devnz.. Haven't met in person. I've got you as a 1st on linked in and I don't tend to connect unless I have spoken with.
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    Oh yeah hey Jeremy! Yeah devnz was not my cup of tea lol, I think I only lasted a few weeks. Good to see you around.

p1necone 4y ago

Walking around barefoot is just a New Zealand culture thing. I make a decent software engineer salary and own shoes and I still walk around barefoot in public a lot because I like it more and it's socially acceptable. Someone got kicked out of a mall for being barefoot a few years ago and it was BIG NEWS https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/108772902/barefoot-woman-ordered-to-leave-auckland-mall-and-only-come-back-with-shoes-on https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/108772902/barefoot-woman-or... 95% of people in small rural NZ towns might heat their homes with wood fires, but that's not the norm in most parts of the country - heat pumps are very common (and required by new rental standards: https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/about-tenancy-services/news/healthy-homes-standards-announced/ https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/about-tenancy-services/news/heal...). I'm not saying you're being intentionally dishonest, but if you've only ever lived in a small rural town here your perspective of the country is probably a bit warped. (And I imagine small rural towns in America are probably not actually much different).

roca 4y ago
I've been kicked out of a mall for not wearing shoes. I guess I should have kicked up a fuss.
LAC-Tech 4y ago
Have higher standards.

theGnuMe 4y ago

Plenty of poor towns here in America. I encourage you to watch the Frontline special growing up poor in America https://www.pbs.org/video/growing-up-poor-in-america-z4g8k5/ https://www.pbs.org/video/growing-up-poor-in-america-z4g8k5/