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> By that time Linux will have replaced more and more subsystem with Rust already. Honestly, this is a bold prediction, maybe a foregone conclusion to some, bu

> By that time Linux will have replaced more and more subsystem with Rust already. Honestly, this is a bold prediction, maybe a foregone conclusion to some, but not everybody. It completely remains to be seen. > It is nonsense to want a new, unproved kernel to provide that level of safety out of a language that has reached 1.0 not very long ago. Perhaps - but the Rust community has been very vocal for a very long time about how much of an improvement over C/C++ it was already before it reached 1.0. I'm not asking for an "enterprise-grade" kernel yet, just signs of prototypes starting to emerge and the community gathering round them. I realise I worded that badly in my initial post. New C/C++/asm based hobby kernels are started (and abandoned) everyday on /r/osdev. Nowhere near as many in Rust by a wide margin. Instead the Rust community seems to have placed all their bets on an "outside in" rewrite of the Linux kernel in Rust. While I think this may well be great for Linux in the long term, its a little dissapointing that there is not more momentum for "from scratch" projects yet. Even Linux started as "as hobby, not big and professional like GNU". Which leads to my next point ... > Personally, I think Linux is plenty good enough, but we have seen the best UNIX can offer. It's time to move on and try something new. Don't disagree at all. That's why I'm surprised there aren't more up and coming projects in Rust with brand new designs to the degree that there are in C/C++. That's all. Maybe they are there, and I'm just not seeing them.

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lelanthran 4y ago
> Don't disagree at all. That's why I'm surprised there aren't more up and coming projects in Rust with brand new designs to the degree that there are in C/C++. That's all. Maybe they are there, and I'm just not seeing them. I suppose you might have a point: with the amount of pro-Rust posts filling almost every discussion of C and C++ over the last 5 years or more, all over the web, the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel.
- nineteen999 4y ago
  > the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel. I didn't want to say it (I have done so bluntly in the past and gotten heavily downvoted for it), but yes that is one conclusion I have reached as well. I sometimes wonder if some of the people who comment that way have ever read the LKMG.
- Ygg2 4y ago
  > the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel. Problems with that is that: A) not everyone wants to dabble in writing kernels B) there are proof of concepts see Redox C) whatever OS you write there is almost zero chance it will make a dent. So why bother with it? It's grueling work for almost no impact.
- biorach 4y ago
  > with the amount of pro-Rust posts filling almost every discussion of C and C++ over the last 5 years or more, all over the web, the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel Don't mistake a very small but very very vocal group of zealots for the Rust community at large
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > Don't mistake a very small but very very vocal group of zealots for the Rust community at large Yeah, but we're talking about the small group who continuously jumps into every C discussion on the web. That's still a large enough group to build a new kernel.
gpm 4y ago
> New C/C++/asm based hobby kernels are started (and abandoned) everyday on /r/osdev. Nowhere near as many in Rust by a wide margin. Instead the Rust community seems to have placed all their bets on an "outside in" rewrite of the Linux kernel in Rust. While I think this may well be great for Linux in the long term, its a little dissapointing that there is not more momentum for "from scratch" projects yet. Even Linux started as "as hobby, not big and professional like GNU". Which leads to my next point ... I think you may just be not looking where the rust people are posting. All you're really saying is that they aren't on /r/osdev, and frankly I don't find that surprising. Here are some of the more flagship projects The biggest rust kernel/os project I'm aware of is https://www.redox-os.org/ https://www.redox-os.org/ It's a bit out of date by now, but this is an excellent guide written in rust: https://os.phil-opp.com/minimal-rust-kernel/ https://os.phil-opp.com/minimal-rust-kernel/ On the embedded side, this is a commercial project that actually "matters": https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris This is a uni-kernel that I've heard about quite a few times: https://github.com/hermitcore/rusty-hermit https://github.com/hermitcore/rusty-hermit Naturally there's a bunch more smaller projects, and maybe larger ones that I haven't heard of.

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lelanthran 4y ago

> Don't disagree at all. That's why I'm surprised there aren't more up and coming projects in Rust with brand new designs to the degree that there are in C/C++. That's all. Maybe they are there, and I'm just not seeing them. I suppose you might have a point: with the amount of pro-Rust posts filling almost every discussion of C and C++ over the last 5 years or more, all over the web, the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel.

nineteen999 4y ago
> the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel. I didn't want to say it (I have done so bluntly in the past and gotten heavily downvoted for it), but yes that is one conclusion I have reached as well. I sometimes wonder if some of the people who comment that way have ever read the LKMG.
Ygg2 4y ago
> the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel. Problems with that is that: A) not everyone wants to dabble in writing kernels B) there are proof of concepts see Redox C) whatever OS you write there is almost zero chance it will make a dent. So why bother with it? It's grueling work for almost no impact.
biorach 4y ago
> with the amount of pro-Rust posts filling almost every discussion of C and C++ over the last 5 years or more, all over the web, the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel Don't mistake a very small but very very vocal group of zealots for the Rust community at large
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > Don't mistake a very small but very very vocal group of zealots for the Rust community at large Yeah, but we're talking about the small group who continuously jumps into every C discussion on the web. That's still a large enough group to build a new kernel.

gpm 4y ago

> New C/C++/asm based hobby kernels are started (and abandoned) everyday on /r/osdev. Nowhere near as many in Rust by a wide margin. Instead the Rust community seems to have placed all their bets on an "outside in" rewrite of the Linux kernel in Rust. While I think this may well be great for Linux in the long term, its a little dissapointing that there is not more momentum for "from scratch" projects yet. Even Linux started as "as hobby, not big and professional like GNU". Which leads to my next point ... I think you may just be not looking where the rust people are posting. All you're really saying is that they aren't on /r/osdev, and frankly I don't find that surprising. Here are some of the more flagship projects The biggest rust kernel/os project I'm aware of is https://www.redox-os.org/ https://www.redox-os.org/ It's a bit out of date by now, but this is an excellent guide written in rust: https://os.phil-opp.com/minimal-rust-kernel/ https://os.phil-opp.com/minimal-rust-kernel/ On the embedded side, this is a commercial project that actually "matters": https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris This is a uni-kernel that I've heard about quite a few times: https://github.com/hermitcore/rusty-hermit https://github.com/hermitcore/rusty-hermit Naturally there's a bunch more smaller projects, and maybe larger ones that I haven't heard of.