7 ms·

That's actually exactly what they do. If you are a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, and the TSC determines that you are on the No Fly List, DHS TRIP

That's actually exactly what they do. If you are a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, and the TSC determines that you are on the No Fly List, DHS TRIP will send you a letter informing you of your status on the No Fly List and providing the option to submit and receive additional information. https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-you-think-youre-no-fly-list https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-you-think-y...

anigbrowl 4y ago
Yes...after you submit a form asking why you were denied boarding, as was stated in the opening paragraph. You don't get notified automatically when you are put on the list.
- Jerrrry 4y ago
  I have been told a few times that I am on the no fly list, so I avoid planes - that, and I am nearly 7 feet tall. Is my only way to discover if I am allowed on an airplane is to buy a ticket and get subsequently denied on the boarding gate/security? No FOIA request, or anything similar, to circumnavigate this? Thank you.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 4y ago
    Yes this is insane. I’m a U.S. citizen and if I’m not allowed to fly because of some arbitrary national security measure then that measure had better be public information and known before I book a ticket. If my government has denied you the right to travel without telling you why I genuinely and sincerely apologize and take responsibility because it should not work like that and ideally I should be able to vote out the people who made that decision.
    - subroutine 4y ago
      What if you are a US citizen, and it has recently been discovered you have been secretly dealing arms to Russia against current sanctions. And while authorities do not currently know your location they suspect you will be flying to/from Russia very soon? Should they let you know not to book a flight?
      - from 4y ago
        That's totally different - indictments are usually sealed before arrests in the kind of case you're talking about and there is longstanding precedent for that to prevent flight from prosecution. They would arrest you for ITAR and IEEPA violations before you board. That kind of thing happened long before the no fly list. That is different than an opaque list with a million people on it most of which have never been accused of anything and where there is an expensive appeals process and the government is allowed to use secret evidence.
        subroutine 4y ago
        Why do you think they put people on the no fly list?
        gggggg5 4y ago
        It's very well documented, no point in speculating. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/passenger-support/travel-redress-program https://www.tsa.gov/travel/passenger-support/travel-redress-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List
        subroutine 4y ago
        > The No Fly List is a small subset of the U.S. government Terrorist Screening Database (also known as the terrorist watchlist) that contains the identity information of known or suspected terrorists. The TSA comment above is pretty straight forward but to be fair the wiki article is filled with instances of speculation.
        gggggg5 4y ago
        The way people end up on this list is super opaque, but it's certainly not used to catch wanted criminals. In fact, the US doesn't have super reliable systems to stop fugitives at airports except on entry.
    - uiri 4y ago
      Why does your citizenship status matter? The right to domestic travel within the United States is enjoyed equally by everyone within the US.
      - notch656c 4y ago
        Are you sure of that? Rights attributed generally to "the people" in the constitution can be limited from being enjoyed based on immigration. For instance, "the people" have the right to keep and bear arms but god help you if you're here irregularly or on a tourist visa and do not meet one of the exemptions. Sure non-immigrants are persons but federal law doesn't give a fuck.
        uiri 4y ago
        The second amendment is one of the few exceptions rather than the rule. It is difficult to argue for inclusion in "the people" who have the right to bear arms when excluded from selective service and from the definition of the unorganized militia.
        notch656c 4y ago
        By your logic women unaffiliated with service are excluded then. The unorganized militia, by US code, is (you can look up the code but this is pretty close) basically able bodied military age male citizens. Throwing in all these constraint when the constitution clearly say "the people" without qualification which magically means basically everyone one place but not most everyone somewhere else seems kind of arbitrary to me, but then again the courts seem to have held up visitors aren't people so hey. This is why I'm not a lawyer because really such fuckery makes my brain melt. If I were the sole sitting justice of the supreme court I'd say the qualification is a person is one unit of people and thus they have the rights of the people. IMO if you're one of "the people" then when the constitution uses "the people" unqualified elsewhere that's you -- which by symmetry means if you can't own a gun you're not a person and have none of the other rights of the people.
        4y ago
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    I had the impression from the article that anyone could submit the form requesting information if they were so inclined; I just meant that most people probably only find out when they're denied. Then again, being 7 feet tall they might be doing you a favor. If you really want to know shoot me an email.
garbagecoder 4y ago
No, stop. I want to believe this is bad. Stop commenting with facts.
- subroutine 4y ago
  Hah, indeed. As a side note, foreign nationals can likely determine their no fly list status from the Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) sanctions programs list. I put together an excel workbook of that data (shared link below [0]); it contains OFAC's Specially Designated Nationals list (SDN), and non-SDN sanctions consolidated set. OFAC sanctions lists can be directly searched [1] and accessed via ftp [2]. In the excel workbook I shared below it's interesting to web search the entities listed as "CYBER" (see the sdn_cyber tab). [0] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1t7QPqgvkNp42zejlBBxi4qpBkQ3VATJL https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1t7QPqgvkNp42zejlBBxi... [1] https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov [2] ftp://ofacftp.treas.gov

anigbrowl 4y ago

Yes...after you submit a form asking why you were denied boarding, as was stated in the opening paragraph. You don't get notified automatically when you are put on the list.

Jerrrry 4y ago
I have been told a few times that I am on the no fly list, so I avoid planes - that, and I am nearly 7 feet tall. Is my only way to discover if I am allowed on an airplane is to buy a ticket and get subsequently denied on the boarding gate/security? No FOIA request, or anything similar, to circumnavigate this? Thank you.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 4y ago
  Yes this is insane. I’m a U.S. citizen and if I’m not allowed to fly because of some arbitrary national security measure then that measure had better be public information and known before I book a ticket. If my government has denied you the right to travel without telling you why I genuinely and sincerely apologize and take responsibility because it should not work like that and ideally I should be able to vote out the people who made that decision.
  - subroutine 4y ago
    What if you are a US citizen, and it has recently been discovered you have been secretly dealing arms to Russia against current sanctions. And while authorities do not currently know your location they suspect you will be flying to/from Russia very soon? Should they let you know not to book a flight?
    - from 4y ago
      That's totally different - indictments are usually sealed before arrests in the kind of case you're talking about and there is longstanding precedent for that to prevent flight from prosecution. They would arrest you for ITAR and IEEPA violations before you board. That kind of thing happened long before the no fly list. That is different than an opaque list with a million people on it most of which have never been accused of anything and where there is an expensive appeals process and the government is allowed to use secret evidence.
      - subroutine 4y ago
        Why do you think they put people on the no fly list?
        gggggg5 4y ago
        It's very well documented, no point in speculating. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/passenger-support/travel-redress-program https://www.tsa.gov/travel/passenger-support/travel-redress-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List
        subroutine 4y ago
        > The No Fly List is a small subset of the U.S. government Terrorist Screening Database (also known as the terrorist watchlist) that contains the identity information of known or suspected terrorists. The TSA comment above is pretty straight forward but to be fair the wiki article is filled with instances of speculation.
        gggggg5 4y ago
        The way people end up on this list is super opaque, but it's certainly not used to catch wanted criminals. In fact, the US doesn't have super reliable systems to stop fugitives at airports except on entry.
  - uiri 4y ago
    Why does your citizenship status matter? The right to domestic travel within the United States is enjoyed equally by everyone within the US.
    - notch656c 4y ago
      Are you sure of that? Rights attributed generally to "the people" in the constitution can be limited from being enjoyed based on immigration. For instance, "the people" have the right to keep and bear arms but god help you if you're here irregularly or on a tourist visa and do not meet one of the exemptions. Sure non-immigrants are persons but federal law doesn't give a fuck.
      - uiri 4y ago
        The second amendment is one of the few exceptions rather than the rule. It is difficult to argue for inclusion in "the people" who have the right to bear arms when excluded from selective service and from the definition of the unorganized militia.
        notch656c 4y ago
        By your logic women unaffiliated with service are excluded then. The unorganized militia, by US code, is (you can look up the code but this is pretty close) basically able bodied military age male citizens. Throwing in all these constraint when the constitution clearly say "the people" without qualification which magically means basically everyone one place but not most everyone somewhere else seems kind of arbitrary to me, but then again the courts seem to have held up visitors aren't people so hey. This is why I'm not a lawyer because really such fuckery makes my brain melt. If I were the sole sitting justice of the supreme court I'd say the qualification is a person is one unit of people and thus they have the rights of the people. IMO if you're one of "the people" then when the constitution uses "the people" unqualified elsewhere that's you -- which by symmetry means if you can't own a gun you're not a person and have none of the other rights of the people.
        4y ago
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  I had the impression from the article that anyone could submit the form requesting information if they were so inclined; I just meant that most people probably only find out when they're denied. Then again, being 7 feet tall they might be doing you a favor. If you really want to know shoot me an email.

garbagecoder 4y ago

No, stop. I want to believe this is bad. Stop commenting with facts.

subroutine 4y ago
Hah, indeed. As a side note, foreign nationals can likely determine their no fly list status from the Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) sanctions programs list. I put together an excel workbook of that data (shared link below [0]); it contains OFAC's Specially Designated Nationals list (SDN), and non-SDN sanctions consolidated set. OFAC sanctions lists can be directly searched [1] and accessed via ftp [2]. In the excel workbook I shared below it's interesting to web search the entities listed as "CYBER" (see the sdn_cyber tab). [0] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1t7QPqgvkNp42zejlBBxi4qpBkQ3VATJL https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1t7QPqgvkNp42zejlBBxi... [1] https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov [2] ftp://ofacftp.treas.gov