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You're asking for enterprise-grade, production ready kernels, and immediately after say Rust is nearing maturity. There you go. Writing a kernel is like buildi

by sph 4y ago

You're asking for enterprise-grade, production ready kernels, and immediately after say Rust is nearing maturity. There you go. Writing a kernel is like building a cathedral. To have a production ready kernel, set aside 15 years, or the equivalent in dollars, at least a couple billion. This is why stuff like Serenity, which is an outstanding achievement, is not much more than a toy. We will have a Rust based kernel that is memory safe. Not this decade though. By that time Linux will have replaced more and more subsystem with Rust already. Remember, enterprise grade means boring and stable. It is nonsense to want a new, unproved kernel to provide that level of safety out of a language that has reached 1.0 not very long ago. Personally, I think Linux is plenty good enough, but we have seen the best UNIX can offer. It's time to move on and try something new.

nineteen999 4y ago
> By that time Linux will have replaced more and more subsystem with Rust already. Honestly, this is a bold prediction, maybe a foregone conclusion to some, but not everybody. It completely remains to be seen. > It is nonsense to want a new, unproved kernel to provide that level of safety out of a language that has reached 1.0 not very long ago. Perhaps - but the Rust community has been very vocal for a very long time about how much of an improvement over C/C++ it was already before it reached 1.0. I'm not asking for an "enterprise-grade" kernel yet, just signs of prototypes starting to emerge and the community gathering round them. I realise I worded that badly in my initial post. New C/C++/asm based hobby kernels are started (and abandoned) everyday on /r/osdev. Nowhere near as many in Rust by a wide margin. Instead the Rust community seems to have placed all their bets on an "outside in" rewrite of the Linux kernel in Rust. While I think this may well be great for Linux in the long term, its a little dissapointing that there is not more momentum for "from scratch" projects yet. Even Linux started as "as hobby, not big and professional like GNU". Which leads to my next point ... > Personally, I think Linux is plenty good enough, but we have seen the best UNIX can offer. It's time to move on and try something new. Don't disagree at all. That's why I'm surprised there aren't more up and coming projects in Rust with brand new designs to the degree that there are in C/C++. That's all. Maybe they are there, and I'm just not seeing them.
- deleted 4y ago
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- lelanthran 4y ago
  > Don't disagree at all. That's why I'm surprised there aren't more up and coming projects in Rust with brand new designs to the degree that there are in C/C++. That's all. Maybe they are there, and I'm just not seeing them. I suppose you might have a point: with the amount of pro-Rust posts filling almost every discussion of C and C++ over the last 5 years or more, all over the web, the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel.
  - nineteen999 4y ago
    > the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel. I didn't want to say it (I have done so bluntly in the past and gotten heavily downvoted for it), but yes that is one conclusion I have reached as well. I sometimes wonder if some of the people who comment that way have ever read the LKMG.
  - Ygg2 4y ago
    > the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel. Problems with that is that: A) not everyone wants to dabble in writing kernels B) there are proof of concepts see Redox C) whatever OS you write there is almost zero chance it will make a dent. So why bother with it? It's grueling work for almost no impact.
  - biorach 4y ago
    > with the amount of pro-Rust posts filling almost every discussion of C and C++ over the last 5 years or more, all over the web, the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel Don't mistake a very small but very very vocal group of zealots for the Rust community at large

by sph 4y ago

nineteen999 4y ago

> By that time Linux will have replaced more and more subsystem with Rust already. Honestly, this is a bold prediction, maybe a foregone conclusion to some, but not everybody. It completely remains to be seen. > It is nonsense to want a new, unproved kernel to provide that level of safety out of a language that has reached 1.0 not very long ago. Perhaps - but the Rust community has been very vocal for a very long time about how much of an improvement over C/C++ it was already before it reached 1.0. I'm not asking for an "enterprise-grade" kernel yet, just signs of prototypes starting to emerge and the community gathering round them. I realise I worded that badly in my initial post. New C/C++/asm based hobby kernels are started (and abandoned) everyday on /r/osdev. Nowhere near as many in Rust by a wide margin. Instead the Rust community seems to have placed all their bets on an "outside in" rewrite of the Linux kernel in Rust. While I think this may well be great for Linux in the long term, its a little dissapointing that there is not more momentum for "from scratch" projects yet. Even Linux started as "as hobby, not big and professional like GNU". Which leads to my next point ... > Personally, I think Linux is plenty good enough, but we have seen the best UNIX can offer. It's time to move on and try something new. Don't disagree at all. That's why I'm surprised there aren't more up and coming projects in Rust with brand new designs to the degree that there are in C/C++. That's all. Maybe they are there, and I'm just not seeing them.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lelanthran 4y ago
> Don't disagree at all. That's why I'm surprised there aren't more up and coming projects in Rust with brand new designs to the degree that there are in C/C++. That's all. Maybe they are there, and I'm just not seeing them. I suppose you might have a point: with the amount of pro-Rust posts filling almost every discussion of C and C++ over the last 5 years or more, all over the web, the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel.
- nineteen999 4y ago
  > the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel. I didn't want to say it (I have done so bluntly in the past and gotten heavily downvoted for it), but yes that is one conclusion I have reached as well. I sometimes wonder if some of the people who comment that way have ever read the LKMG.
- Ygg2 4y ago
  > the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel. Problems with that is that: A) not everyone wants to dabble in writing kernels B) there are proof of concepts see Redox C) whatever OS you write there is almost zero chance it will make a dent. So why bother with it? It's grueling work for almost no impact.
- biorach 4y ago
  > with the amount of pro-Rust posts filling almost every discussion of C and C++ over the last 5 years or more, all over the web, the time that advocates spent arguing about why C users are ignorant and stubborn could have been spent contributing to a minimal kernel Don't mistake a very small but very very vocal group of zealots for the Rust community at large