3 ms·

Maybe we should or shouldn't, but the potential victims of this aren't just some greedy corporation. Leaking the no fly list could cause irreparable harm to ind

Maybe we should or shouldn't, but the potential victims of this aren't just some greedy corporation. Leaking the no fly list could cause irreparable harm to individuals whose names are on it or even similar, causing discrimination by employers and other organizations.

calvinmorrison 4y ago
Top secret stazi lists should absolutely be shared. It's why we have 'we have right to know' laws, so the government can't just lock people up in a jail and disappear them.
- ben_w 4y ago
  While this is true, it is also true that many people think "where there's smoke, there's fire". Or, to put it another way, governments can make people disappear by publishing such lists and having the police be busy somewhere else when a mob happens.
- subroutine 4y ago
  If someone was on a no fly list and they wanted the general public to know, they could just put it out there themselves. No? This seems more likely to be used as a form of public shaming than a way to expose injustice.
  - lmm 4y ago
    > If someone was on a no fly list and they wanted the general public to know, they could just put it out there themselves. No? How would they know? How would they prove it? There's a known case a few years ago where a woman was trapped away from the US for 3 years - her estranged husband put her on the list when she went to visit her parents, and boom, she's not allowed into the US and no-one will tell her why, making it easy for him to get divorced and keep the house. (If she'd known what had happened, and been able to put her hands on enough money, she could maybe have flown to Canada/Mexico and entered overland; all she knew was she was denied boarding)
    - IAmGraydon 4y ago
      >There's a known case a few years ago where a woman was trapped away from the US for 3 years - her estranged husband put her on the list when she went to visit her parents, and boom, she's not allowed into the US and no-one will tell her why, making it easy for him to get divorced and keep the house. How does one "put her on the list"? It's not that easy.
      - lmm 4y ago
        Apparently if you happen to be working in the right government department then it is. It was only discovered when he applied for a promotion and they did an extended background check.
      - AngriestLettuce 4y ago
        Just because things should work a certain way doesn't mean they do.
      - gggggg5 4y ago
        You can almost certainly get anyone put on this list by simply creating an email account like firstname.lastname@protonmail.com and sending out a few threatening emails to the right places.
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    It's not like the federal government sends you a letter to tell you about it and what to do if you have an issue with it. While you raise a valid concern, I think it's a lot more likely to function as the basis of a class action suit - a sufficiently plausible and timely piece of evidence that would move a court to compel proper discovery.
    - subroutine 4y ago
      That's actually exactly what they do. If you are a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, and the TSC determines that you are on the No Fly List, DHS TRIP will send you a letter informing you of your status on the No Fly List and providing the option to submit and receive additional information. https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-you-think-youre-no-fly-list https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-you-think-y...
      - anigbrowl 4y ago
        Yes...after you submit a form asking why you were denied boarding, as was stated in the opening paragraph. You don't get notified automatically when you are put on the list.
        Jerrrry 4y ago
        I have been told a few times that I am on the no fly list, so I avoid planes - that, and I am nearly 7 feet tall. Is my only way to discover if I am allowed on an airplane is to buy a ticket and get subsequently denied on the boarding gate/security? No FOIA request, or anything similar, to circumnavigate this? Thank you.
        SOLAR_FIELDS 4y ago
        Yes this is insane. I’m a U.S. citizen and if I’m not allowed to fly because of some arbitrary national security measure then that measure had better be public information and known before I book a ticket. If my government has denied you the right to travel without telling you why I genuinely and sincerely apologize and take responsibility because it should not work like that and ideally I should be able to vote out the people who made that decision.
- jeffchien 4y ago
  I think you may not be reading the parent comment correctly. They're saying that those on the list have a right to privacy, therefore outright leaking the list is wrong. Being able to find out whether or not you are on the list is not incompatible with maintaining others' right to privacy.
  - calvinmorrison 4y ago
    I am reading it correctly. They do not have a right to privacy, because we all have the right to know who the government is keeping on lists. Regardless the line of thinking reeks with hypocrisy - the government of the United States has been doing nothing but trampling privacy, yet when it comes to top secret government surveillance state programmes they hold it close to their chests
    - jeffchien 4y ago
      I don't understand your reasoning. To me, you seem to be saying that since the state violated everyone's privacy, the general public now has the right to violate these individuals' privacy even further to get back at the state. Publishing the list as-is would also imply that you believe the state is infallible and can't err when putting people on this list. There are thousands of people out there who have redress numbers because they have the same name as someone on the list. Can you imagine if getting a redress number is necessary for employment? Leaking the list would ironically increase the state's control. (edit: Again, I'm not disagreeing with letting individuals find out if they themselves are on the list, just disagreeing with the method)
    - berkle4455 4y ago
      > They do not have a right to privacy What the fuck is wrong with you? Do you understand the repercussions of it being found someone is on a no-fly list (because we all know the US government makes mistakes).
  - landemva 4y ago
    > those on the list have a right to privacy, therefore outright leaking Those Americans on list have a right to question their accuser in court before a right (to travel) is restricted. When did we agree to suspend due process, 14th amendment?
- dclowd9901 4y ago
  And then, what, some hapless person on there gets doxxed and some red neck asshole rolls up on their house and shoots them cause ‘Merica? After 9/11 we had these idiots killing brown people left and right just because “they could be terrorists.” Don’t be so naive. Lists of people are almost inherently dangerous things. I don’t like that a no-fly list exists in the first place but it would be completely irresponsible to just publish it and wash your hands of it.
_yb2s 4y ago
I think the intention here is to leak the list to a journalist, that will report on it's contents, but still not leak the list publicly.
mempko 4y ago
What are you talking about? The list is literally designed to harm those people. It's a no-fly-list. If anything, having it public could provide public pressure to get them off the list.
BeFlatXIII 4y ago
It also provides proof to the victims that they were on it. It may not bring justice from the same government that put them there in the first place, but spreading their stories may (hopefully) reduce its legitimacy and revoke the consent of the governed.

calvinmorrison 4y ago

Top secret stazi lists should absolutely be shared. It's why we have 'we have right to know' laws, so the government can't just lock people up in a jail and disappear them.

ben_w 4y ago
While this is true, it is also true that many people think "where there's smoke, there's fire". Or, to put it another way, governments can make people disappear by publishing such lists and having the police be busy somewhere else when a mob happens.
subroutine 4y ago
If someone was on a no fly list and they wanted the general public to know, they could just put it out there themselves. No? This seems more likely to be used as a form of public shaming than a way to expose injustice.
- lmm 4y ago
  > If someone was on a no fly list and they wanted the general public to know, they could just put it out there themselves. No? How would they know? How would they prove it? There's a known case a few years ago where a woman was trapped away from the US for 3 years - her estranged husband put her on the list when she went to visit her parents, and boom, she's not allowed into the US and no-one will tell her why, making it easy for him to get divorced and keep the house. (If she'd known what had happened, and been able to put her hands on enough money, she could maybe have flown to Canada/Mexico and entered overland; all she knew was she was denied boarding)
  - IAmGraydon 4y ago
    >There's a known case a few years ago where a woman was trapped away from the US for 3 years - her estranged husband put her on the list when she went to visit her parents, and boom, she's not allowed into the US and no-one will tell her why, making it easy for him to get divorced and keep the house. How does one "put her on the list"? It's not that easy.
    - lmm 4y ago
      Apparently if you happen to be working in the right government department then it is. It was only discovered when he applied for a promotion and they did an extended background check.
    - AngriestLettuce 4y ago
      Just because things should work a certain way doesn't mean they do.
    - gggggg5 4y ago
      You can almost certainly get anyone put on this list by simply creating an email account like firstname.lastname@protonmail.com and sending out a few threatening emails to the right places.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  It's not like the federal government sends you a letter to tell you about it and what to do if you have an issue with it. While you raise a valid concern, I think it's a lot more likely to function as the basis of a class action suit - a sufficiently plausible and timely piece of evidence that would move a court to compel proper discovery.
  - subroutine 4y ago
    That's actually exactly what they do. If you are a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, and the TSC determines that you are on the No Fly List, DHS TRIP will send you a letter informing you of your status on the No Fly List and providing the option to submit and receive additional information. https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-you-think-youre-no-fly-list https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-you-think-y...
    - anigbrowl 4y ago
      Yes...after you submit a form asking why you were denied boarding, as was stated in the opening paragraph. You don't get notified automatically when you are put on the list.
      - Jerrrry 4y ago
        I have been told a few times that I am on the no fly list, so I avoid planes - that, and I am nearly 7 feet tall. Is my only way to discover if I am allowed on an airplane is to buy a ticket and get subsequently denied on the boarding gate/security? No FOIA request, or anything similar, to circumnavigate this? Thank you.
        SOLAR_FIELDS 4y ago
        Yes this is insane. I’m a U.S. citizen and if I’m not allowed to fly because of some arbitrary national security measure then that measure had better be public information and known before I book a ticket. If my government has denied you the right to travel without telling you why I genuinely and sincerely apologize and take responsibility because it should not work like that and ideally I should be able to vote out the people who made that decision.
jeffchien 4y ago
I think you may not be reading the parent comment correctly. They're saying that those on the list have a right to privacy, therefore outright leaking the list is wrong. Being able to find out whether or not you are on the list is not incompatible with maintaining others' right to privacy.
- calvinmorrison 4y ago
  I am reading it correctly. They do not have a right to privacy, because we all have the right to know who the government is keeping on lists. Regardless the line of thinking reeks with hypocrisy - the government of the United States has been doing nothing but trampling privacy, yet when it comes to top secret government surveillance state programmes they hold it close to their chests
  - jeffchien 4y ago
    I don't understand your reasoning. To me, you seem to be saying that since the state violated everyone's privacy, the general public now has the right to violate these individuals' privacy even further to get back at the state. Publishing the list as-is would also imply that you believe the state is infallible and can't err when putting people on this list. There are thousands of people out there who have redress numbers because they have the same name as someone on the list. Can you imagine if getting a redress number is necessary for employment? Leaking the list would ironically increase the state's control. (edit: Again, I'm not disagreeing with letting individuals find out if they themselves are on the list, just disagreeing with the method)
  - berkle4455 4y ago
    > They do not have a right to privacy What the fuck is wrong with you? Do you understand the repercussions of it being found someone is on a no-fly list (because we all know the US government makes mistakes).
- landemva 4y ago
  > those on the list have a right to privacy, therefore outright leaking Those Americans on list have a right to question their accuser in court before a right (to travel) is restricted. When did we agree to suspend due process, 14th amendment?
dclowd9901 4y ago
And then, what, some hapless person on there gets doxxed and some red neck asshole rolls up on their house and shoots them cause ‘Merica? After 9/11 we had these idiots killing brown people left and right just because “they could be terrorists.” Don’t be so naive. Lists of people are almost inherently dangerous things. I don’t like that a no-fly list exists in the first place but it would be completely irresponsible to just publish it and wash your hands of it.

_yb2s 4y ago

I think the intention here is to leak the list to a journalist, that will report on it's contents, but still not leak the list publicly.

mempko 4y ago

What are you talking about? The list is literally designed to harm those people. It's a no-fly-list. If anything, having it public could provide public pressure to get them off the list.

BeFlatXIII 4y ago

It also provides proof to the victims that they were on it. It may not bring justice from the same government that put them there in the first place, but spreading their stories may (hopefully) reduce its legitimacy and revoke the consent of the governed.