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Meanwhile, I needed to pay folks who have fled the country, and now are located in Kazakhstan. I used... Western Union. Surprisingly, it was without any fees, I

Meanwhile, I needed to pay folks who have fled the country, and now are located in Kazakhstan. I used... Western Union. Surprisingly, it was without any fees, I sent the exact amount in dollars from the US and they received exactly the same amount in US dollars in minutes. I don't know why Bitcoin today is something people want to use, since you can send Western Union or use other payment methods (like Wise) to almost all countries.

chordalkeyboard 4y ago
Western Union being free is the outlier here.
- xydinesh 4y ago
  I'm not sure if it is free. They may have made money from the exchange rate
  - dzamo_norton 4y ago
    Absolutely, this can be seen in the broker's spreads.
- ralfhn 4y ago
  it's definitely not free. There's a fee but even if they waive it, they make more money from currency exchange rates.
  - RomanPushkin 4y ago
    There was no exchange rate conversion. In my case they received the exact amount in USD.
- notahacker 4y ago
  True, but then the stuff Western Union charges a significant margin for is the stuff which is a very useful service (getting spendable local cash in someone's village). If you can get that at all with crypto, the guy in the village exchanging cryptos for local currency is going to charge even more...
  - chordalkeyboard 4y ago
    not really, El Salvador switched from wire transfers to BTC exactly because the fees were lower.
    - notahacker 4y ago
      No, El Salvador switched from wire transfers to BTC because the president wanted to. Which doesn't has anything to do with the fact that if you've got Bitcoins in a village in some random developing country, you need to find somebody that's willing to give you local banknotes. That person is usually going to charge more commission than Western Union for the privilege of doing so, because they can.
      - chordalkeyboard 4y ago
        > El Salvador switched from wire transfers to BTC because the president wanted to. The country switched to using BTC as legal tender because it was already being used as local currency because the people were using it for payments due to the lower fees. > That person is usually going to charge more commission than Western Union for the privilege of doing so, because they can. It seems like you're assuming this to be the case without having any real knowledge of the situation. BTC was adopted by El Salvadorans exactly because they were able to spend less on fees over the competition.
zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
My limited experience with Western Union and MoneyGram was awful. This was a decade ago, so maybe things have changed.
shp0ngle 4y ago
Some countries have capital control and thus cannot send money from there easily. I lived in Vietnam for a while; there is lots of WU for people abroad sending money there, but it’s really hard to send money out. But in the end expats usually just swapped the cash with each other and sent the money in Revolut. That worked (for small amounts anyway)
ROTMetro 4y ago
+1 for Wise. I regularly send funds to Zaporizhzhia and they are received almost instantly.
- ptnxlo 4y ago
  That would be my first thought. Never had a problem with it.
zaguios 4y ago
I’ve personally had nothing but terrible experiences with Western Union. In contrast, sending money with crypto (not Coinbase which is a nightmare centralized layer which defeats the purpose of crypto) has had 0 issues for me.
- trog 4y ago
  Would love to hear your story of your simple easy decentralised cryptoasset money sending as most people I know who do this end up telling me a story that is not exactly a user experience delight but more like a nightmare of key management, shady random exchanges, incomprehensible jargon, bizarre gas fees and so on.
mathgenius 4y ago
The fee is the y-intercept, and the exchange rate is the slope. These businesses make money by manipulating either or bother of these numbers.
- huijzer 4y ago
  Agreed. I saw it also happen for "reputable" stock brokers. They claimed no fees but always had a appalling exchange rate.
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    This applies to all goods and services. If everyone else is charging a fixed fee on top of a proportional one, and then one vendor advertises having no fixed fee, you can be certain that they're recouping it some other way - be it a steeper slope, non-linear pricing, or just a bunch of extra fees that will materialize after they lock you into a contract.
gnicholas 4y ago
Did you know in advance that there would be no fees on either end? Was this an exception or is this just their standard offering?
neurostimulant 4y ago
Years ago I used bitcoin to avoid having to use western union. How the table has turned...

chordalkeyboard 4y ago

Western Union being free is the outlier here.

xydinesh 4y ago
I'm not sure if it is free. They may have made money from the exchange rate
- dzamo_norton 4y ago
  Absolutely, this can be seen in the broker's spreads.
ralfhn 4y ago
it's definitely not free. There's a fee but even if they waive it, they make more money from currency exchange rates.
- RomanPushkin 4y ago
  There was no exchange rate conversion. In my case they received the exact amount in USD.
notahacker 4y ago
True, but then the stuff Western Union charges a significant margin for is the stuff which is a very useful service (getting spendable local cash in someone's village). If you can get that at all with crypto, the guy in the village exchanging cryptos for local currency is going to charge even more...
- chordalkeyboard 4y ago
  not really, El Salvador switched from wire transfers to BTC exactly because the fees were lower.
  - notahacker 4y ago
    No, El Salvador switched from wire transfers to BTC because the president wanted to. Which doesn't has anything to do with the fact that if you've got Bitcoins in a village in some random developing country, you need to find somebody that's willing to give you local banknotes. That person is usually going to charge more commission than Western Union for the privilege of doing so, because they can.
    - chordalkeyboard 4y ago
      > El Salvador switched from wire transfers to BTC because the president wanted to. The country switched to using BTC as legal tender because it was already being used as local currency because the people were using it for payments due to the lower fees. > That person is usually going to charge more commission than Western Union for the privilege of doing so, because they can. It seems like you're assuming this to be the case without having any real knowledge of the situation. BTC was adopted by El Salvadorans exactly because they were able to spend less on fees over the competition.

zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago

My limited experience with Western Union and MoneyGram was awful. This was a decade ago, so maybe things have changed.

shp0ngle 4y ago

Some countries have capital control and thus cannot send money from there easily. I lived in Vietnam for a while; there is lots of WU for people abroad sending money there, but it’s really hard to send money out. But in the end expats usually just swapped the cash with each other and sent the money in Revolut. That worked (for small amounts anyway)

ROTMetro 4y ago

+1 for Wise. I regularly send funds to Zaporizhzhia and they are received almost instantly.

ptnxlo 4y ago
That would be my first thought. Never had a problem with it.

zaguios 4y ago

I’ve personally had nothing but terrible experiences with Western Union. In contrast, sending money with crypto (not Coinbase which is a nightmare centralized layer which defeats the purpose of crypto) has had 0 issues for me.

trog 4y ago
Would love to hear your story of your simple easy decentralised cryptoasset money sending as most people I know who do this end up telling me a story that is not exactly a user experience delight but more like a nightmare of key management, shady random exchanges, incomprehensible jargon, bizarre gas fees and so on.

mathgenius 4y ago

The fee is the y-intercept, and the exchange rate is the slope. These businesses make money by manipulating either or bother of these numbers.

huijzer 4y ago
Agreed. I saw it also happen for "reputable" stock brokers. They claimed no fees but always had a appalling exchange rate.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  This applies to all goods and services. If everyone else is charging a fixed fee on top of a proportional one, and then one vendor advertises having no fixed fee, you can be certain that they're recouping it some other way - be it a steeper slope, non-linear pricing, or just a bunch of extra fees that will materialize after they lock you into a contract.

gnicholas 4y ago

Did you know in advance that there would be no fees on either end? Was this an exception or is this just their standard offering?

neurostimulant 4y ago

Years ago I used bitcoin to avoid having to use western union. How the table has turned...