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Unless you have metrics for the average retailer, that's probably not true. Local corner shops vary widely, but are not the least bit shy about hiring undocumen

by tootie 4y ago

Unless you have metrics for the average retailer, that's probably not true. Local corner shops vary widely, but are not the least bit shy about hiring undocumented workers, stealing wages, skimping on safety and avoiding taxes. They just do it at such a small scale, it doesn't make the news.

Retric 4y ago
The statistics I gave where in comparison to the average. They also have higher rates of injury and pay less in taxes. Amazon has had wage theft issues, but I don’t know how they stack up on undocumented workers or the average retailer which includes Costco etc not just tiny corner stores. Wage theft: https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/2/22262294/amazon-flex-wage-theft-allegations-ftc-fine-drivers-gig-tips https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/2/22262294/amazon-flex-wage-... more wage theft: https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/11/15/murmurs-amazon-settles-oregon-wage-theft-lawsuit/ https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/11/15/murmurs-amazon-settles... you can find a bunch of these going back years but this is what I was initially thinking of: https://www.fastcompany.com/3020175/employees-sue-amazon-over-unpaid-security-searches https://www.fastcompany.com/3020175/employees-sue-amazon-ove...
- giantg2 4y ago
  Where were those stats? I didn't see them in your comment history.
  - Retric 4y ago
    So wait you searched by comment history rather than say Google: https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/12/tech/amazon-injury-data-study/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/12/tech/amazon-injury-data-study...
    - bhelkey 4y ago
      > The statistics *I gave* where in comparison to the average. If you say you linked a statistic, it seems reasonable to me to assume that you linked a statistic.
      - Retric 4y ago
        Gave a statistic isn’t the same as linking to a statistic. Also, statistics include facts like more than average not just specific numerical values. PS: Though I have also linked to the numeric value before just not in this comment chain.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      So wait, you lied about providing prior metrics. It's important to be looking at the same numbers when having a discussion about those numbers.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - Retric 4y ago
        No, facts like more than average are statistics. You seemingly misunderstood the term and then tried to derail an argument which I find hilarious.
        giantg2 4y ago
        The definition disagrees with you. Facts are just that - facts. The analysis of how you arrived at that fact is statistics. It requires numerical analysis. If you've ever taken a stats class you'd know an answer like "more than average" without any numerical work shown would be marked wrong. You'd also know that saying "more than average" provides no real information since it's a huge range. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statistics https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statistics
        Retric 4y ago
        Average of X > average of Y fits “a collection of quantitative data” For more detail, I have taken statistics, even tutored PHD students. Showing your work is required if the answer is 4.415 or more than average. A sample refers to a single element, statistic encompass a sample, a parameter covers to the full population. You will often hear statistics communicated as something like “more than four times as likely” and assume it’s referring to 4<X<5 but they can also be used in cases when a measurement exceeded the range at which you can quantify it. As in you checked the rain gauge and it was full, in such cases the only option is to use > X.
        giantg2 4y ago
- tootie 4y ago
  I don't doubt that Amazon has abused workers in various ways, I'm just saying the headlines exist because of their massive scale and visibility. EPI estimates (which are probably a bit aggressive, but backed by sources) say of 2.4M workers in the 10 most populous states, $8B/yr are lost to wage theft. Amazon, with about 1M employees, is not stealing billions per year. In fact, they consistently pay well above minimum wage. My point here isn't that Amazon is great and we should stop complaining, but rather that worker abuse is rampant across all industries and Amazon is likely exceeding what is a very low bar. https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-from-workers-paychecks-each-year/ https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-fro...
  - Retric 4y ago
    You are misusing that statistic the average of all employers would include all workers not only those workers that experienced wage theft. If the US labor US labor force is ~161.2 million workers and had 8B/year in wage theft then the average per 1 million workers is ~50 million. Seeing multiple payouts well over 50 million suggests Amazon could be worse than average here.

by tootie 4y ago

Retric 4y ago

The statistics I gave where in comparison to the average. They also have higher rates of injury and pay less in taxes. Amazon has had wage theft issues, but I don’t know how they stack up on undocumented workers or the average retailer which includes Costco etc not just tiny corner stores. Wage theft: https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/2/22262294/amazon-flex-wage-theft-allegations-ftc-fine-drivers-gig-tips https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/2/22262294/amazon-flex-wage-... more wage theft: https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/11/15/murmurs-amazon-settles-oregon-wage-theft-lawsuit/ https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/11/15/murmurs-amazon-settles... you can find a bunch of these going back years but this is what I was initially thinking of: https://www.fastcompany.com/3020175/employees-sue-amazon-over-unpaid-security-searches https://www.fastcompany.com/3020175/employees-sue-amazon-ove...

giantg2 4y ago
Where were those stats? I didn't see them in your comment history.
- Retric 4y ago
  So wait you searched by comment history rather than say Google: https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/12/tech/amazon-injury-data-study/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/12/tech/amazon-injury-data-study...
  - bhelkey 4y ago
    > The statistics *I gave* where in comparison to the average. If you say you linked a statistic, it seems reasonable to me to assume that you linked a statistic.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Gave a statistic isn’t the same as linking to a statistic. Also, statistics include facts like more than average not just specific numerical values. PS: Though I have also linked to the numeric value before just not in this comment chain.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    So wait, you lied about providing prior metrics. It's important to be looking at the same numbers when having a discussion about those numbers.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - Retric 4y ago
      No, facts like more than average are statistics. You seemingly misunderstood the term and then tried to derail an argument which I find hilarious.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        The definition disagrees with you. Facts are just that - facts. The analysis of how you arrived at that fact is statistics. It requires numerical analysis. If you've ever taken a stats class you'd know an answer like "more than average" without any numerical work shown would be marked wrong. You'd also know that saying "more than average" provides no real information since it's a huge range. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statistics https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statistics
        Retric 4y ago
        Average of X > average of Y fits “a collection of quantitative data” For more detail, I have taken statistics, even tutored PHD students. Showing your work is required if the answer is 4.415 or more than average. A sample refers to a single element, statistic encompass a sample, a parameter covers to the full population. You will often hear statistics communicated as something like “more than four times as likely” and assume it’s referring to 4<X<5 but they can also be used in cases when a measurement exceeded the range at which you can quantify it. As in you checked the rain gauge and it was full, in such cases the only option is to use > X.
        giantg2 4y ago
tootie 4y ago
I don't doubt that Amazon has abused workers in various ways, I'm just saying the headlines exist because of their massive scale and visibility. EPI estimates (which are probably a bit aggressive, but backed by sources) say of 2.4M workers in the 10 most populous states, $8B/yr are lost to wage theft. Amazon, with about 1M employees, is not stealing billions per year. In fact, they consistently pay well above minimum wage. My point here isn't that Amazon is great and we should stop complaining, but rather that worker abuse is rampant across all industries and Amazon is likely exceeding what is a very low bar. https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-from-workers-paychecks-each-year/ https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-fro...
- Retric 4y ago
  You are misusing that statistic the average of all employers would include all workers not only those workers that experienced wage theft. If the US labor US labor force is ~161.2 million workers and had 8B/year in wage theft then the average per 1 million workers is ~50 million. Seeing multiple payouts well over 50 million suggests Amazon could be worse than average here.