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I'll precede this by stating that I'm all for abortion. I'm European and the only problem I have with abortion in my country is that it's a law rather than bein

by Levitz 4y ago

I'll precede this by stating that I'm all for abortion. I'm European and the only problem I have with abortion in my country is that it's a law rather than being coded into the constitution. That said, the way it worked in the US never made sense to me. The idea of establishing trimesters from a Supreme Court decision seems contrived to say the least, not to mention the way the relationship to the constitution was drawn. It further baffles me how many people seem to act as if what SCOTUS did was a ban on abortion. States are free to choose, so if the country actually does care it ought to show in the ballot box. Abortion is only illegal in 5 states of the European Union (Malta, Vatican City, Liechtenstein, Andorra, and Poland) and yet I would oppose a European law establishing the right to abortion on all of its members. It's for them to decide.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago
Please let me educate you, as a European, why the supreme court decision acts as a functional ban on abortion for millions of americans. Firstly, multiple states have been preparing for the overturning of Roe v Wade, the court case which specified the right to an abortion was privacy and therefore protected. There are multiple decades-old laws on the books that says if Roe v Wade is overturned abortion is automatically outlawed in the entire state. There's no ballot-box here. Secondly, the Supreme Court has washed its hands of multiple institutions that would allow people to vote in politicians other than politicians already in power in their respective states. The Supreme Court has struck down or otherwise narrowed national mandates curtailing racist voting policies. The Supreme Court has outright stated they will now refuse to take up any more cases about gerrymandering, which is a process where politicians get to choose who votes for them basically. This enforces that pro-choice people will always be split up into districts where anti-abortionists are the majority. The first point creates non-democratic law activation that bans abortion, followed by curtailing the ability for people to vote against this implementation even if they are, in aggregate, the majority of the state. Now, it's also important to follow on the third point: the united states of america is a giant country. By land mass it is larger than the entire EU. A single state will dwarf multiple countries. This means that even though you have the right to travel to a state that allows abortion, the travel is long and expensive. They will have to fly, pay money for a hotel, and also not work for a week or more. Overall, this means a severe curtailing of abortion access to millions of people, who are disempowered as a population to participate in democracy.
- pragmar 4y ago
  Civil liberties and democracy are often at odds. Where states that have implemented a ban, it has been done democratically. The fact that it was done in a previous congressional session doesn't change that. Democracy and civil liberties are both great, but in this case it's a "pick one" situation.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    Please read my entire post. Anti-democratic policies are enacted such that the resulting government isn't representative of the people.
- Levitz 4y ago
  >Firstly, multiple states have been preparing for the overturning of Roe v Wade, the court case which specified the right to an abortion was privacy and therefore protected. There are multiple decades-old laws on the books that says if Roe v Wade is overturned abortion is automatically outlawed in the entire state. There's no ballot-box here. That's precisely the ballot-box. Elected officials did that. >The Supreme Court has outright stated they will now refuse to take up any more cases about gerrymandering, which is a process where politicians get to choose who votes for them basically. I'm sorry but gerrymandering is orders of magnitude more complex than this. There is not even a widely agreed upon position on what would constitute fair voting districts. If you truly believe the country simply isn't democratic then its problems are simply so large in comparison I can't imagine caring about abortion at all. The truth of the matter, I believe, is that the national divide on abortion simply isn't solved yet, SCOTUS delayed it, but even after being established as legal in the entirety of the US for a long while a good bunch of US citizens still don't agree with the legality of the practice. "Only" about 6 in 10 US citizens are pro-choice. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/07/15/key-facts-about-the-abortion-debate-in-america/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/07/15/key-facts-a...
medler 4y ago
Democracy is great but it’s not enough. You need some mechanism to prevent to majority from stripping away rights from everyone else. For example, in the US it is illegal for any state to permit slavery, and this prevents individual states from legalizing slavery, which IMO is a good thing. Until recently, the right to abortion was guaranteed by the right to privacy implicit in the constitution. except in certain cases
- indymike 4y ago
  > Until recently, the right to abortion was guaranteed by the right to privacy implicit in the constitution. tldr; Something created by court opinion can be ended by court opinion Abortion was guaranteed by a decision of the Supreme Court, which was based on the majority of the court's opinion of what the Constitution says. As the makeup of the court changes, it's opinion of what the Constitution says changes. Without a Federal law or even more powerfuly, an amendment to the Constitution, abortion is left to the states and subject to 50 different constitutions, courts and legislatures. That there has not been law or amendment says that there is not a strong enough majority or super majority of Americans that want that right guaranteed by the Constitution.
bee_rider 4y ago
Many Americans see our country as more like a single country than an EU style coalition. We’re for example expected to send money to support some of the less successful states under the justification that we can’t leave our countrymen behind. We get dragged into wars because our countrymen feel like going on an adventure. So we also expect things like human rights to be somewhat consistent. But we seem to be on a waning trend as far as national unity goes.
Akronymus 4y ago
My personal gripe, as a european, with how I see abortion discussion from the US is that many seem to argue for 2nd/3rd trimester abortions for any/no reason. And with overturning ROE, I saw it more as forcing the issue to be actually resolved, rather than having a, IMO, wrongful precedent. Aka, it"s a state issue, until it is codified into federal law.

by Levitz 4y ago

PuppyTailWags 4y ago

Please let me educate you, as a European, why the supreme court decision acts as a functional ban on abortion for millions of americans. Firstly, multiple states have been preparing for the overturning of Roe v Wade, the court case which specified the right to an abortion was privacy and therefore protected. There are multiple decades-old laws on the books that says if Roe v Wade is overturned abortion is automatically outlawed in the entire state. There's no ballot-box here. Secondly, the Supreme Court has washed its hands of multiple institutions that would allow people to vote in politicians other than politicians already in power in their respective states. The Supreme Court has struck down or otherwise narrowed national mandates curtailing racist voting policies. The Supreme Court has outright stated they will now refuse to take up any more cases about gerrymandering, which is a process where politicians get to choose who votes for them basically. This enforces that pro-choice people will always be split up into districts where anti-abortionists are the majority. The first point creates non-democratic law activation that bans abortion, followed by curtailing the ability for people to vote against this implementation even if they are, in aggregate, the majority of the state. Now, it's also important to follow on the third point: the united states of america is a giant country. By land mass it is larger than the entire EU. A single state will dwarf multiple countries. This means that even though you have the right to travel to a state that allows abortion, the travel is long and expensive. They will have to fly, pay money for a hotel, and also not work for a week or more. Overall, this means a severe curtailing of abortion access to millions of people, who are disempowered as a population to participate in democracy.

pragmar 4y ago
Civil liberties and democracy are often at odds. Where states that have implemented a ban, it has been done democratically. The fact that it was done in a previous congressional session doesn't change that. Democracy and civil liberties are both great, but in this case it's a "pick one" situation.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Please read my entire post. Anti-democratic policies are enacted such that the resulting government isn't representative of the people.
Levitz 4y ago
>Firstly, multiple states have been preparing for the overturning of Roe v Wade, the court case which specified the right to an abortion was privacy and therefore protected. There are multiple decades-old laws on the books that says if Roe v Wade is overturned abortion is automatically outlawed in the entire state. There's no ballot-box here. That's precisely the ballot-box. Elected officials did that. >The Supreme Court has outright stated they will now refuse to take up any more cases about gerrymandering, which is a process where politicians get to choose who votes for them basically. I'm sorry but gerrymandering is orders of magnitude more complex than this. There is not even a widely agreed upon position on what would constitute fair voting districts. If you truly believe the country simply isn't democratic then its problems are simply so large in comparison I can't imagine caring about abortion at all. The truth of the matter, I believe, is that the national divide on abortion simply isn't solved yet, SCOTUS delayed it, but even after being established as legal in the entirety of the US for a long while a good bunch of US citizens still don't agree with the legality of the practice. "Only" about 6 in 10 US citizens are pro-choice. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/07/15/key-facts-about-the-abortion-debate-in-america/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/07/15/key-facts-a...

medler 4y ago

Democracy is great but it’s not enough. You need some mechanism to prevent to majority from stripping away rights from everyone else. For example, in the US it is illegal for any state to permit slavery, and this prevents individual states from legalizing slavery, which IMO is a good thing. Until recently, the right to abortion was guaranteed by the right to privacy implicit in the constitution. except in certain cases

indymike 4y ago
> Until recently, the right to abortion was guaranteed by the right to privacy implicit in the constitution. tldr; Something created by court opinion can be ended by court opinion Abortion was guaranteed by a decision of the Supreme Court, which was based on the majority of the court's opinion of what the Constitution says. As the makeup of the court changes, it's opinion of what the Constitution says changes. Without a Federal law or even more powerfuly, an amendment to the Constitution, abortion is left to the states and subject to 50 different constitutions, courts and legislatures. That there has not been law or amendment says that there is not a strong enough majority or super majority of Americans that want that right guaranteed by the Constitution.

bee_rider 4y ago

Many Americans see our country as more like a single country than an EU style coalition. We’re for example expected to send money to support some of the less successful states under the justification that we can’t leave our countrymen behind. We get dragged into wars because our countrymen feel like going on an adventure. So we also expect things like human rights to be somewhat consistent. But we seem to be on a waning trend as far as national unity goes.

Akronymus 4y ago

My personal gripe, as a european, with how I see abortion discussion from the US is that many seem to argue for 2nd/3rd trimester abortions for any/no reason. And with overturning ROE, I saw it more as forcing the issue to be actually resolved, rather than having a, IMO, wrongful precedent. Aka, it"s a state issue, until it is codified into federal law.