7 ms·

Wikipedia’s Redesign Is Barely Noticeable. That’s the Point.

49 points by susam 4y ago

kibwen 4y ago
I noticed that the Wikipedia page for "Wikipedia" allows you to preview the new design: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia The top comment from yesterday's HN submission mentions how you can configure Wikipedia (or any MediaWiki) page to use whatever theme you like, including all the previous themes, which are still actively maintained: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34431533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34431533
- chimeracoder 4y ago
  > I noticed that the Wikipedia page for "Wikipedia" allows you to preview the new design: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia The navigation frame on the left is absolutely massive. At first I thought you linked the mobile view, but no, it really is wasting a quarter of the width of the page (on my monitor) on white space.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    The main feature of the new design is that the width of the article body is now limited, rather than unlimited as previously, under the idea that overlong lines reduce the readability of text. With limited text width, removing the navigation sidebar would not decrease the amount of whitespace. If you would prefer to have unlimited width, you can configure this behavior in the new theme or select a different theme altogether.
    - pwdisswordfisha 4y ago
      They tried this already in 2014 as part of the Typography Refresh™ package, but reverted it rather quickly after a backlash. Likewise line height changes and not-quite-black black text. Only the relatively benign font changes stayed. Today the only reminder of it (a rather cryptic one) seems to be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiSpeak#Typography_Refresh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiSpeak#Typography...
- karaterobot 4y ago
  Only if you create an account and log in, right? I've gotten along without having a Wikipedia account for the last 20 years, I guess now I have to make one. If that was a product goal, it was a very sneaky success.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    As mentioned in the above HN link, you don't need to log in. If you're annoyed by the logged-out approach of appending a query parameter to the URL, other people in sibling threads shared Greasemonkey scripts (or whatever they're called these days) for doing so automatically.
  - sdiacom 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure that "getting the same four Hacker News users, who feel personally wronged every time a website becomes more readable, to sign up" is nowhere near the top of their list of priorities.
    - karaterobot 4y ago
      Grrr, I hate readability! Just the idea of proper line lengths makes me angry. But I think everybody has to create an account, not just us salty grandpas. Like I said, if it was a product goal, it's a sneaky way to do it. Not saying that is the case.
      - sdiacom 4y ago
        Sneaky indeed. So sneaky, in fact, that it would be completely ineffective.
        karaterobot 4y ago
        I dunno, I bet they get an uptick in signups, especially right after launching this design.
- lycos 4y ago
  Just to add on this `?useskin=vector-2022` will show the new one.
- jklinger410 4y ago
  Looks like the white space on the right side is a perfect width for banner ads.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    If they wanted to add banner ads, they could have just done so on the old design. The existence of a new design has no implications there.
    - swsieber 4y ago
      It may not imply that they intend to add ads, but having that space already there makes it more likely.
  - bastawhiz 4y ago
    It's also the perfect width to add a friends list or sidebar full of skeuomorphic widgets or live updating feed of edits to the site. There's no reason to assume Wikipedia would introduce advertising (they're not a corporation, they're not motivated by profit, they have a healthy chunk of cash in the bank). Of all the organizations I'd expect to give in to greed, Wikimedia doesn't crack the top 100.
    - mik1998 4y ago
      They have been known for continuously lying in their banner advertisements for donations so I wouldn't be surprised if they ever finally sold out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_Cancer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_C...
      - pwinnski 4y ago
        People keep making that claim, and yet when I ask for example of lying, I never seem to get anything. Just asking for money while you already have money is not inherently lying. You might not like it, but lying involves making untrue statements. "We need your money" is not untrue, even if you already have a lot of money. "We need your money or else we'll shut down" would be untrue, but all of the pitches I've seen don't include anything like that.
dmix 4y ago
I've been using https://www.wikiwand.com/ https://www.wikiwand.com/ w/ darkmode for years now and still I prefer it over the new one. I've customized it to be just how I like using their settings.
chiffre01 4y ago
why is there so much white space ?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- yccs27 4y ago
  I like it because I want to focus on the text, not the visual noise around it . Also a smaller text column is better for readability
- trfzx 4y ago
  Because filling the space with overly long lines, as it used to do, makes for a horrible reading experience.
  - properparity 4y ago
    How? By making text flow to 100% of the width you can easily resize the browser window for everyone's perfect reading width. I usually run my browser tiled to 50% of the screen, the new design wastes a lot of space at that size (you have to shrink to really narrow width before it enters 'mobile mode' and uses 100% of the width again - I mean it's pretty insane, you can see more text at say 30% width, but at 40%-60% it pops out that useless white space padding on the left leading to a narrower effective text width)
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      Yeah, I just tried it out and it looks pretty good! (If I resize my window to be 1/3 the width of my monitor, that is.) I totally agree with you: I like to use my browser at ~50% of screen width on a 27" screen, so it looks terrible there because of all the wasted space. If they made it work at 50% width like it does at 30% width, I'd have no complaints.
lemoncookiechip 4y ago
There's so much wasted space to the left. And still no dark mode.
- waboremo 4y ago
  There isn't wasted space. The left supports the table of contents, which can get quite long and layered. Plus it also supports the expanding top menu button. The right side can be expanded on by clicking the square button at the bottom if you're not a fan of the "narrow" reading mode.
  - nmz 4y ago
    Maybe we aren't seeing the same things, To the left of the table of contents there is a lot of wasted space still. and to the right there is even more wasted space. Navigating is also slow, it takes a second to scroll down, while before it was instantaneous.
  - rbancroft 4y ago
    I don't see any square button. 2/3rds of the horizontal real estate of my screen is empty... it's wasted space. This might look ok on a smaller monitor, but on 4K it is very sparse.
    - waboremo 4y ago
      The button is at the bottom of the screen to the right. Visit an example page [1], and it should be there at the very bottom right corner. It is set to only appear on wide screens (1600px+), where the "wasted space" can actually be utilized. Seems being directly linked to pages doesn't show the new design sometimes if you aren't logged in. But I'll provide the page where they talk about the new theme itself and the expand button [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Antiguan_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Antiguan_general_election [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vector_2022#How_to_expand_the_width_of_the_new_skin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vector_2022#How_to_e...
steanne 4y ago
oh, i noticed it this morning and immediately blocked the floating things.
unethical_ban 4y ago
Via a twitter thread from Wikipedia, I found an actual changelog: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wikipedia-desktop/ https://wikimediafoundation.org/wikipedia-desktop/
micheal12 4y ago
[flagged]
micheal12 4y ago
[flagged]
prvc 4y ago
That's completely false. Earlier, when first viewing a Wikipedia page today, I experienced the same (very) mild panic that typically accompanies visiting the mobile page by accident. A regression in the visual appeal of the layout, in its readability at a glance, and in the efficiency of its use of space. Earlier design could be considered "iconic", so this change is especially detrimental.
- gburdell3 4y ago
  I also thought I was served the mobile site at first, but after using the new site a bit I actually quite like it. One of my longstanding complaints with the old design was that using the full width of the screen for text is very hard to read on a modern monitor, so I'm glad to see they narrowed it down a bit. I also really like the floating table of contents.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- kypro 4y ago
  I had a similar reaction. I was so surprised that I spontaneously pulled back from my chair when I stumbled upon the redesigned site earlier. It was a "wtf is this??" moment. I don't know if it's just that I'm not used to the new look, but I honestly hate the pillarboxing to fit the new maximum content width.
- kibwen 4y ago
  > Earlier design could be considered "iconic", so this change is especially detrimental. I mean, I'm old enough to remember when that earlier design was brand-new, and its predecessor was just as iconic, IMO. :P
- plorkyeran 4y ago
  Yeah, I _like_ the redesign but I certainly wouldn't call it "barely noticeable".
joegahona 4y ago
Clickbait headlines get justifiably trashed on HN, but this is an example of a headline that is creative and playful while also communicating the essential information: - First word says exactly what the article is about: Wikipedia. - First two words give more precision and the news itself: "Wikipedia's Redesign." - First sentence communicates it was a minor redesign. - Second sentence communicates it was intentional, and there will be rationale shared. This type of headline writing should be expected, but sadly it's the exception.
dhruvarora013 4y ago
I've been using the "Modern for Wikipedia" chrome extension for a while and it seems like they Wikipedia team has borrowed a lot of ideas from the extension. I still prefer the extension since you can change the theme away from bright white. Great changes overall.
tomudding 4y ago
I have been using the Timeless skin [0] for quite some time now and the main reason I switched was that the content would be a bit more condensed towards the middle of the page. This helps a lot on larger monitors and I can see why this new theme also does something similar. However, the large amount of whitespace on the sides is just wasted and in combination with the fact that more interaction is required to do basic things (like changing the language of a page) is something that makes this new theme not "barely noticeable". [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&useskin=timeless https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&useskin...
madeofpalk 4y ago
Having used it briefly, I'm not a fan of the redesign (which I think the headline has wrong - I think it's very noticeable) as it is currently. I understand the goal is to limit the line width of articles to make it more comfortable, and I don't disagree with that, but the content feels poorly framed now, just floating in the abyss of 'empty space'. The sticky side nav (which I think is a great idea!) feels unconnected from the article itself. I think the basis is good, but final execution is lacking. I think with a few relatively minor tweaks it could be even better. Edit: I think the page looks better with the hamburger menu open, with the different background give the article a bit more structure to sit against.
yccs27 4y ago
So many knee-jerk reactions by people disliking the change, so I want to give another view: I really like the new design. - When reading an article, I want to have absolutely minimal visual noise. Removing the old sidebar helps. - The smaller column width helps with readability, because it's easier to scan back to the start of the next line. - It's great to have the table of contents always visible, to quickly jump around the some of the miles-long articles typical for Wikipedia. - I don't need anything else on the page - so I don't have any complaints about "inefficient use of space". On the contrary - more whitespace helps me focus on the article. - Unlike with Wikiwand, there are no distracting animations.
- BeetleB 4y ago
  I strongly dislike that the table of contents have folded entries. I now have to click to get the link to a subheading. In general, for quite a few things I need extra clicks to get to it. Also, as I mostly print articles[1], I had a special printing layout set up to print Wikipedia articles. I need to come up with a new layout (reader view for Wikipedia used to be terrible). [1] https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2021/Dec/consuming-articles-offline/ https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2021/Dec/consuming-articles-off...
  - ryukoposting 4y ago
    I agree. I think the redesign is good (and overdue) but hiding the table of contents by default is bad.
rhn_mk1 4y ago
Clearly designed by someone who only uses one language. The one most used element for me was the side bar, where I could hover over the language to see the translation of some term. Now it's hidden behind a click, and a looot of scrolling. Just try to reach Svenska. I can work around the style changes easily with custom CSS and stylus, but I'm not impressed by that change.
- trfzx 4y ago
  The extra click is an inconvenience that they also noted themselves. But it definitely was designed with multilingual use in mind, see here https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Features/Language_switching https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improveme...
  - rhn_mk1 4y ago
    Thank goodness they are not as hung up on having a button as it initially appears: "We are currently considering adding single-click functionality for the most-frequently used languages." Sadly, while that means that the overall experience will be improved, it will solve exactly nothing for those who are unlucky enough to use a less-frequently-used language.
    - trfzx 4y ago
      I think they might mean most-frequently used of that user (I think the "suggested languages" already are supposed to work like that.) But that presumably requires an account.
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      It has already taken multiple clicks for users wanting to read English Wikipedia in a language that wasn't one of the nine in the sidebar. In fact, clicking the "287 more" link at the bottom of the left sidebar in the old design brought up the exact same box that clicking the "297 languages" link at the top of the new design does, with the same list of languages in the same order. Alternatively, one could create an account and set a default language, or visit a wikipedia site dedicated to that language. https://en.wikipedia.org https://en.wikipedia.org vs https://zh.wikipedia.org https://zh.wikipedia.org for example. Once you've switched, further links within the site should keep you in that language.
miloignis 4y ago
Weirdly for me, it seems to have been rolled out inconsistantly - maybe it's in progress? For me right now, the Emacs page is new, while the GNU Emacs page is old, for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Emacs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Emacs
- Evidlo 4y ago
  They're both using the new design for me.
  - miloignis 4y ago
    Me as well now, must have been gradual rollout indeed.
perihelions 4y ago
Here's the degradation on my 14" laptop. For me, it's a bit more than "noticeable"! https://i.ibb.co/RzNWLjY/before.webp https://i.ibb.co/RzNWLjY/before.webp https://i.ibb.co/B2W3Bt6/after.webp https://i.ibb.co/B2W3Bt6/after.webp It *really* doesn't degrade gracefully under a small amount of text scaling. I don't think they fully tested this redesign before deploying it; I don't think my configuration's an obscure edge case. My complaints: * Very narrow width for the main article body, where sidebars are present * Far too large margins; incorrect scaling * Jarring left/right asymmetry * Undesirable scrollbars on internal elements (left Table of Contents); hinders navigation * Space above and below left ToC is wasted and ugly (To be transparent, I *did* cherry-pick this specific page so that I could show multiple issues in a single picture).
pwinnski 4y ago
Old skin, minimum width: https://ibb.co/Pcvn7VP https://ibb.co/Pcvn7VP New skin, same width: https://ibb.co/PgxF8hf https://ibb.co/PgxF8hf Old skin, maximum width: https://ibb.co/WsptkCY https://ibb.co/WsptkCY New Skin, same width: https://ibb.co/x8NmgZq https://ibb.co/x8NmgZq It's probably possible to find screen widths at which comparisons favor the old skin, but all I see is improvement. From old to new, minimum or maximum width, more content is visible, and line lengths are more readable. Kudos on the new design.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  If you scroll down past the lede and the table of contents the old design has more information. It's just that giant square of whitespace next to the ToC that is holding back the old one.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    On longer articles, you do eventually get to a point where overly-long line widths mean more content fits onscreen at once, but at the cost of readability. Long line lengths are objectively bad for readability[0] and information retention[1], even among people who claim to prefer them. That said, I believe long line lengths are faster. 0. https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability 1. https://uxmovement.com/content/how-margins-and-line-lengths-affect-readability/ https://uxmovement.com/content/how-margins-and-line-lengths-...
hellotomyrars 4y ago
For the love of god just give me a native dark mode.
AbrahamParangi 4y ago
I can't help but think Wikipedia would be a better product if it was still run on a shoestring budget. The cash overhang of the Wikimedia Foundation means that the internal incentives are to overhire, and for those overhired employees to make work for themselves.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  Maybe I'm misinformed, but I thought most of that cash went to fund stuff that had no relation with the Wikipedia site at all, not for make-work employees.
  - AbrahamParangi 4y ago
    Arguably both random projects and make-work employees. In the past 6 years the number of employees has increased by 150% from 280 to 700, revenue (donations) increased from ~80M to ~160M, while the number of monthly visitors has increased only ~10%. Regardless, it is extremely hard to see how they could be providing additional value for their rapidly growing expenditures.

49 points by susam 4y ago

I noticed that the Wikipedia page for "Wikipedia" allows you to preview the new design: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia The top comment from yesterday's HN submission mentions how you can configure Wikipedia (or any MediaWiki) page to use whatever theme you like, including all the previous themes, which are still actively maintained: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34431533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34431533

chimeracoder 4y ago
> I noticed that the Wikipedia page for "Wikipedia" allows you to preview the new design: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia The navigation frame on the left is absolutely massive. At first I thought you linked the mobile view, but no, it really is wasting a quarter of the width of the page (on my monitor) on white space.
- kibwen 4y ago
  The main feature of the new design is that the width of the article body is now limited, rather than unlimited as previously, under the idea that overlong lines reduce the readability of text. With limited text width, removing the navigation sidebar would not decrease the amount of whitespace. If you would prefer to have unlimited width, you can configure this behavior in the new theme or select a different theme altogether.
  - pwdisswordfisha 4y ago
    They tried this already in 2014 as part of the Typography Refresh™ package, but reverted it rather quickly after a backlash. Likewise line height changes and not-quite-black black text. Only the relatively benign font changes stayed. Today the only reminder of it (a rather cryptic one) seems to be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiSpeak#Typography_Refresh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiSpeak#Typography...
karaterobot 4y ago
Only if you create an account and log in, right? I've gotten along without having a Wikipedia account for the last 20 years, I guess now I have to make one. If that was a product goal, it was a very sneaky success.
- kibwen 4y ago
  As mentioned in the above HN link, you don't need to log in. If you're annoyed by the logged-out approach of appending a query parameter to the URL, other people in sibling threads shared Greasemonkey scripts (or whatever they're called these days) for doing so automatically.
- sdiacom 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure that "getting the same four Hacker News users, who feel personally wronged every time a website becomes more readable, to sign up" is nowhere near the top of their list of priorities.
  - karaterobot 4y ago
    Grrr, I hate readability! Just the idea of proper line lengths makes me angry. But I think everybody has to create an account, not just us salty grandpas. Like I said, if it was a product goal, it's a sneaky way to do it. Not saying that is the case.
    - sdiacom 4y ago
      Sneaky indeed. So sneaky, in fact, that it would be completely ineffective.
      - karaterobot 4y ago
        I dunno, I bet they get an uptick in signups, especially right after launching this design.
lycos 4y ago
Just to add on this `?useskin=vector-2022` will show the new one.
jklinger410 4y ago
Looks like the white space on the right side is a perfect width for banner ads.
- kibwen 4y ago
  If they wanted to add banner ads, they could have just done so on the old design. The existence of a new design has no implications there.
  - swsieber 4y ago
    It may not imply that they intend to add ads, but having that space already there makes it more likely.
- bastawhiz 4y ago
  It's also the perfect width to add a friends list or sidebar full of skeuomorphic widgets or live updating feed of edits to the site. There's no reason to assume Wikipedia would introduce advertising (they're not a corporation, they're not motivated by profit, they have a healthy chunk of cash in the bank). Of all the organizations I'd expect to give in to greed, Wikimedia doesn't crack the top 100.
  - mik1998 4y ago
    They have been known for continuously lying in their banner advertisements for donations so I wouldn't be surprised if they ever finally sold out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_Cancer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_C...
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      People keep making that claim, and yet when I ask for example of lying, I never seem to get anything. Just asking for money while you already have money is not inherently lying. You might not like it, but lying involves making untrue statements. "We need your money" is not untrue, even if you already have a lot of money. "We need your money or else we'll shut down" would be untrue, but all of the pitches I've seen don't include anything like that.

dmix 4y ago

I've been using https://www.wikiwand.com/ https://www.wikiwand.com/ w/ darkmode for years now and still I prefer it over the new one. I've customized it to be just how I like using their settings.

chiffre01 4y ago

why is there so much white space ?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
yccs27 4y ago
I like it because I want to focus on the text, not the visual noise around it . Also a smaller text column is better for readability
trfzx 4y ago
Because filling the space with overly long lines, as it used to do, makes for a horrible reading experience.
- properparity 4y ago
  How? By making text flow to 100% of the width you can easily resize the browser window for everyone's perfect reading width. I usually run my browser tiled to 50% of the screen, the new design wastes a lot of space at that size (you have to shrink to really narrow width before it enters 'mobile mode' and uses 100% of the width again - I mean it's pretty insane, you can see more text at say 30% width, but at 40%-60% it pops out that useless white space padding on the left leading to a narrower effective text width)
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    Yeah, I just tried it out and it looks pretty good! (If I resize my window to be 1/3 the width of my monitor, that is.) I totally agree with you: I like to use my browser at ~50% of screen width on a 27" screen, so it looks terrible there because of all the wasted space. If they made it work at 50% width like it does at 30% width, I'd have no complaints.

lemoncookiechip 4y ago

There's so much wasted space to the left. And still no dark mode.

waboremo 4y ago
There isn't wasted space. The left supports the table of contents, which can get quite long and layered. Plus it also supports the expanding top menu button. The right side can be expanded on by clicking the square button at the bottom if you're not a fan of the "narrow" reading mode.
- nmz 4y ago
  Maybe we aren't seeing the same things, To the left of the table of contents there is a lot of wasted space still. and to the right there is even more wasted space. Navigating is also slow, it takes a second to scroll down, while before it was instantaneous.
- rbancroft 4y ago
  I don't see any square button. 2/3rds of the horizontal real estate of my screen is empty... it's wasted space. This might look ok on a smaller monitor, but on 4K it is very sparse.
  - waboremo 4y ago
    The button is at the bottom of the screen to the right. Visit an example page [1], and it should be there at the very bottom right corner. It is set to only appear on wide screens (1600px+), where the "wasted space" can actually be utilized. Seems being directly linked to pages doesn't show the new design sometimes if you aren't logged in. But I'll provide the page where they talk about the new theme itself and the expand button [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Antiguan_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Antiguan_general_election [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vector_2022#How_to_expand_the_width_of_the_new_skin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vector_2022#How_to_e...

steanne 4y ago

oh, i noticed it this morning and immediately blocked the floating things.

unethical_ban 4y ago

Via a twitter thread from Wikipedia, I found an actual changelog: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wikipedia-desktop/ https://wikimediafoundation.org/wikipedia-desktop/

micheal12 4y ago

[flagged]

micheal12 4y ago

[flagged]

prvc 4y ago

That's completely false. Earlier, when first viewing a Wikipedia page today, I experienced the same (very) mild panic that typically accompanies visiting the mobile page by accident. A regression in the visual appeal of the layout, in its readability at a glance, and in the efficiency of its use of space. Earlier design could be considered "iconic", so this change is especially detrimental.

gburdell3 4y ago
I also thought I was served the mobile site at first, but after using the new site a bit I actually quite like it. One of my longstanding complaints with the old design was that using the full width of the screen for text is very hard to read on a modern monitor, so I'm glad to see they narrowed it down a bit. I also really like the floating table of contents.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
kypro 4y ago
I had a similar reaction. I was so surprised that I spontaneously pulled back from my chair when I stumbled upon the redesigned site earlier. It was a "wtf is this??" moment. I don't know if it's just that I'm not used to the new look, but I honestly hate the pillarboxing to fit the new maximum content width.
kibwen 4y ago
> Earlier design could be considered "iconic", so this change is especially detrimental. I mean, I'm old enough to remember when that earlier design was brand-new, and its predecessor was just as iconic, IMO. :P
plorkyeran 4y ago
Yeah, I _like_ the redesign but I certainly wouldn't call it "barely noticeable".

joegahona 4y ago

Clickbait headlines get justifiably trashed on HN, but this is an example of a headline that is creative and playful while also communicating the essential information: - First word says exactly what the article is about: Wikipedia. - First two words give more precision and the news itself: "Wikipedia's Redesign." - First sentence communicates it was a minor redesign. - Second sentence communicates it was intentional, and there will be rationale shared. This type of headline writing should be expected, but sadly it's the exception.

dhruvarora013 4y ago

I've been using the "Modern for Wikipedia" chrome extension for a while and it seems like they Wikipedia team has borrowed a lot of ideas from the extension. I still prefer the extension since you can change the theme away from bright white. Great changes overall.

tomudding 4y ago

I have been using the Timeless skin [0] for quite some time now and the main reason I switched was that the content would be a bit more condensed towards the middle of the page. This helps a lot on larger monitors and I can see why this new theme also does something similar. However, the large amount of whitespace on the sides is just wasted and in combination with the fact that more interaction is required to do basic things (like changing the language of a page) is something that makes this new theme not "barely noticeable". [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&useskin=timeless https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&useskin...

madeofpalk 4y ago

Having used it briefly, I'm not a fan of the redesign (which I think the headline has wrong - I think it's very noticeable) as it is currently. I understand the goal is to limit the line width of articles to make it more comfortable, and I don't disagree with that, but the content feels poorly framed now, just floating in the abyss of 'empty space'. The sticky side nav (which I think is a great idea!) feels unconnected from the article itself. I think the basis is good, but final execution is lacking. I think with a few relatively minor tweaks it could be even better. Edit: I think the page looks better with the hamburger menu open, with the different background give the article a bit more structure to sit against.

yccs27 4y ago

So many knee-jerk reactions by people disliking the change, so I want to give another view: I really like the new design. - When reading an article, I want to have absolutely minimal visual noise. Removing the old sidebar helps. - The smaller column width helps with readability, because it's easier to scan back to the start of the next line. - It's great to have the table of contents always visible, to quickly jump around the some of the miles-long articles typical for Wikipedia. - I don't need anything else on the page - so I don't have any complaints about "inefficient use of space". On the contrary - more whitespace helps me focus on the article. - Unlike with Wikiwand, there are no distracting animations.

BeetleB 4y ago
I strongly dislike that the table of contents have folded entries. I now have to click to get the link to a subheading. In general, for quite a few things I need extra clicks to get to it. Also, as I mostly print articles[1], I had a special printing layout set up to print Wikipedia articles. I need to come up with a new layout (reader view for Wikipedia used to be terrible). [1] https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2021/Dec/consuming-articles-offline/ https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2021/Dec/consuming-articles-off...
- ryukoposting 4y ago
  I agree. I think the redesign is good (and overdue) but hiding the table of contents by default is bad.

rhn_mk1 4y ago

Clearly designed by someone who only uses one language. The one most used element for me was the side bar, where I could hover over the language to see the translation of some term. Now it's hidden behind a click, and a looot of scrolling. Just try to reach Svenska. I can work around the style changes easily with custom CSS and stylus, but I'm not impressed by that change.

trfzx 4y ago
The extra click is an inconvenience that they also noted themselves. But it definitely was designed with multilingual use in mind, see here https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Features/Language_switching https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improveme...
- rhn_mk1 4y ago
  Thank goodness they are not as hung up on having a button as it initially appears: "We are currently considering adding single-click functionality for the most-frequently used languages." Sadly, while that means that the overall experience will be improved, it will solve exactly nothing for those who are unlucky enough to use a less-frequently-used language.
  - trfzx 4y ago
    I think they might mean most-frequently used of that user (I think the "suggested languages" already are supposed to work like that.) But that presumably requires an account.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    It has already taken multiple clicks for users wanting to read English Wikipedia in a language that wasn't one of the nine in the sidebar. In fact, clicking the "287 more" link at the bottom of the left sidebar in the old design brought up the exact same box that clicking the "297 languages" link at the top of the new design does, with the same list of languages in the same order. Alternatively, one could create an account and set a default language, or visit a wikipedia site dedicated to that language. https://en.wikipedia.org https://en.wikipedia.org vs https://zh.wikipedia.org https://zh.wikipedia.org for example. Once you've switched, further links within the site should keep you in that language.

miloignis 4y ago

Weirdly for me, it seems to have been rolled out inconsistantly - maybe it's in progress? For me right now, the Emacs page is new, while the GNU Emacs page is old, for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Emacs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Emacs

Evidlo 4y ago
They're both using the new design for me.
- miloignis 4y ago
  Me as well now, must have been gradual rollout indeed.

perihelions 4y ago

Here's the degradation on my 14" laptop. For me, it's a bit more than "noticeable"! https://i.ibb.co/RzNWLjY/before.webp https://i.ibb.co/RzNWLjY/before.webp https://i.ibb.co/B2W3Bt6/after.webp https://i.ibb.co/B2W3Bt6/after.webp It *really* doesn't degrade gracefully under a small amount of text scaling. I don't think they fully tested this redesign before deploying it; I don't think my configuration's an obscure edge case. My complaints: * Very narrow width for the main article body, where sidebars are present * Far too large margins; incorrect scaling * Jarring left/right asymmetry * Undesirable scrollbars on internal elements (left Table of Contents); hinders navigation * Space above and below left ToC is wasted and ugly (To be transparent, I *did* cherry-pick this specific page so that I could show multiple issues in a single picture).

pwinnski 4y ago

Old skin, minimum width: https://ibb.co/Pcvn7VP https://ibb.co/Pcvn7VP New skin, same width: https://ibb.co/PgxF8hf https://ibb.co/PgxF8hf Old skin, maximum width: https://ibb.co/WsptkCY https://ibb.co/WsptkCY New Skin, same width: https://ibb.co/x8NmgZq https://ibb.co/x8NmgZq It's probably possible to find screen widths at which comparisons favor the old skin, but all I see is improvement. From old to new, minimum or maximum width, more content is visible, and line lengths are more readable. Kudos on the new design.

_dain_ 4y ago
If you scroll down past the lede and the table of contents the old design has more information. It's just that giant square of whitespace next to the ToC that is holding back the old one.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  On longer articles, you do eventually get to a point where overly-long line widths mean more content fits onscreen at once, but at the cost of readability. Long line lengths are objectively bad for readability[0] and information retention[1], even among people who claim to prefer them. That said, I believe long line lengths are faster. 0. https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability 1. https://uxmovement.com/content/how-margins-and-line-lengths-affect-readability/ https://uxmovement.com/content/how-margins-and-line-lengths-...

hellotomyrars 4y ago

For the love of god just give me a native dark mode.

AbrahamParangi 4y ago

I can't help but think Wikipedia would be a better product if it was still run on a shoestring budget. The cash overhang of the Wikimedia Foundation means that the internal incentives are to overhire, and for those overhired employees to make work for themselves.

midoridensha 4y ago
Maybe I'm misinformed, but I thought most of that cash went to fund stuff that had no relation with the Wikipedia site at all, not for make-work employees.
- AbrahamParangi 4y ago
  Arguably both random projects and make-work employees. In the past 6 years the number of employees has increased by 150% from 280 to 700, revenue (donations) increased from ~80M to ~160M, while the number of monthly visitors has increased only ~10%. Regardless, it is extremely hard to see how they could be providing additional value for their rapidly growing expenditures.