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I'm like you. An ex of mine claimed that most people never even think about committing suicide. It's hard for me to understand how anyone could avoid such an ob

I'm like you. An ex of mine claimed that most people never even think about committing suicide. It's hard for me to understand how anyone could avoid such an obvious thought, but I have since seen a lot of evidence that some people's minds really don't explore the possibility space, and when they do it's only along prescribed paths... So I guess it's possible?

SpaceL10n 4y ago
I find this concept fascinating, where can I read more?
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  [Fox News joke removed since upon further reflection it wasn't funny] Seriously though, I suppose I was misusing the word "evidence" here... I haven't actually studied this beyond observing and talking to people I know. I would also be interested in reading on the topic if anyone can suggest something!
  - Slava_Propanei 4y ago
    Ah yes, Fox News. The source of all bad thought is not the global liberal hegemony, but rather its kayfabe opposition.
    - foobarbecue 4y ago
      Vouching for this. It's off-topic and a little inflammatory but I started that, and it taught me the word kayfabe. Thanks to dang for introducing me to the vouch feature.
  - foobarbecue 4y ago
    I'm sad that Slava_Propanei's comment below is dead. I'm stoked to learned the word "keyfabe."
    - dang 4y ago
      You can vouch for [dead] comments. When enough users do that, it will come back to life. See https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cvouch https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cvouch.
derbOac 4y ago
FWIW, this sort of issue is a serious problem for many people with severe OCD. Basically a thought comes into their minds, about something disturbing or taboo, and they start obsessing over the fact they had the thought, because they're so distraught about the idea it would even come into their mind. In most cases, they are so far from actually doing anything related to the thought, and that's why they are so distraught. This leads to penitential behavior, and compulsions, etc. Sometimes figuring out if they're just obsessing because they're worried about a thought, versus actually perseverating over a potentially actionable drive, is really really difficult. Not saying you have OCD, it's just a whole area that can lead to seriously debilitating problems for some individuals.
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  Interesting; that makes a lot of sense. This insight makes me think there's a continuum between brains set to "control all thoughts" and brains set to "autmatically explore all possibilities." I think I'm pretty neurotypical and fall somewhere in the middle, but I can see how a minor change in that "setting" would have a big impact on my behavior.
  - rhacker 4y ago
    That's the main difference between OCD and not.
- justsocrateasin 4y ago
  I actually feel like this is a good argument for normalizing the fact that probably everyone has thoughts about suicide (as OP said, thinking about the implications versus considering). I remember a period of my life where I was struggling a bit more than normal with anxiety, and my creative / intrusive brain was like "how about you think on the concept of suicide?" to which my brain responded "wow now you're thinking about suicide, you should really seek help". In reality, it was just an intrusive thought. But the fact that my brain jumped on that thought, and ruminated on it as "if the thought popped into my head, maybe I'm not OK", that was the thing that caused problems.
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
I think it is possible and I think it helps to explore what you don't think about. Everyone has things that never/rarely occur to them to consider performing as an action, even people with significantly broader consideration-spheres than others. For example, I've considered suicide but never going pro in ballet. I've considered stealing from my employer but never becoming an opera influencer. I'm less athletic than a sibling of mine, so things like vaulting over fences/climbing trees aren't things I that would even occur to me to perform but my sibling is always thinking of ways they can get over and around physical obstacles with their body. I don't think that it's some people follow prescribed paths. I think everyone has familiar and less-familiar paths, and some paths are totally out of the way. And I think the overlap of what's considered familiar and what's considered out of the way have much less overlap than is commonly understood.
- dsr_ 4y ago
  Unfortunately, now I have considered going pro in ballet (result: not going to happen), becoming an opera influencer (result: highly unlikely but not absolutely impossible; can I reasonably work towards the return of the comic operetta? Probably not without writing one. I could manage the book but not the music. Who do I know who might want to write the music?) and I have frequently considered but discarded the likelihood of vaulting over most fences and climbing most trees. Thanks.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    But that's the thing, right, you didn't consider those things before. There's no difference between not having considered suicide and not having considered pro ballet and it doesn't reflect anything about you in particular. That's why I'm saying I don't think it's incomprehensible that some people just haven't thought of things you've considered before. Because obviously you also haven't thought of things to consider until someone else (myself) brought them up.
kibwen 4y ago
It boils down to a semantic argument. People have differing definitions of what it means to "think about committing suicide". If you're up on top of a tall object and happen to imagine yourself plummeting over the edge even without any intention to do so, some people will consider that "thinking about it", and some people won't. The useful interpretation is to exercise empathy and put yourself in the mind of the person writing the questionnaire, and ask what definition they are likely using. For example, your therapist doesn't care if you had a random intrusive thought thirty years ago, they care if you presently have actual designs of self-harm. Likewise, in the OP, the person interpreting the security clearance doesn't care if you were accidentally caught up in a silly witch hunt when you were 12.
- Atheros 4y ago
  It's impractical for everyone and impossible for some people to interpret every question through the lens of the person asking the question. The use of American euphemisms is constantly changing and it is unreasonable to expect non-native English speakers or neurodivergent people to keep up. Practice empathy. Guess at others' intent in order to do your best to give others the information that they want. But then insist that they use plain English in the future and that doing otherwise is wrong. https://sneak.berlin/20191201/american-communication/ https://sneak.berlin/20191201/american-communication/
  - bityard 4y ago
    > if you speak directly, what will be heard by your listeners is whatever your statements are presumed to imply, not what is actually stated—regardless of whether or not those implications are intended or not. This pretty well sums up my experience of the HN comments section.
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  I agree that one should attempt to answer the /intended/ question. In this case, however, it wasn't semantic. My ex and I were on the same page as to how we were using "think". She was claiming that by our shared definition of think, most people didn't, and we did.
photochemsyn 4y ago
That might be related to why it's such a taboo subject - people fear that even mentioning the word 'suicide' will cause some people to starting making deliberate plans to end their own life. (It's certainly a rather depressing topic, not suitable for small talk or dinner conversation, and people who are always bringing it up probably could use some therapist time.) The effect is similar to the statement, "don't think of a blue elephant" - it's pretty hard to not immediately think of some kind of a blue elephant (Dumbo the Disney character? A wild African elephant that got blue mud all over it? A painted elephant in a Indian potentate's parade? Etc.) Psychologists use the term 'ideation' to distinguish between merely thinking about a topic, versus obsessing over a topic, making plans related to a topic, and so on.

SpaceL10n 4y ago

I find this concept fascinating, where can I read more?

foobarbecue 4y ago
[Fox News joke removed since upon further reflection it wasn't funny] Seriously though, I suppose I was misusing the word "evidence" here... I haven't actually studied this beyond observing and talking to people I know. I would also be interested in reading on the topic if anyone can suggest something!
- Slava_Propanei 4y ago
  Ah yes, Fox News. The source of all bad thought is not the global liberal hegemony, but rather its kayfabe opposition.
  - foobarbecue 4y ago
    Vouching for this. It's off-topic and a little inflammatory but I started that, and it taught me the word kayfabe. Thanks to dang for introducing me to the vouch feature.
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  I'm sad that Slava_Propanei's comment below is dead. I'm stoked to learned the word "keyfabe."
  - dang 4y ago
    You can vouch for [dead] comments. When enough users do that, it will come back to life. See https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cvouch https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cvouch.

derbOac 4y ago

FWIW, this sort of issue is a serious problem for many people with severe OCD. Basically a thought comes into their minds, about something disturbing or taboo, and they start obsessing over the fact they had the thought, because they're so distraught about the idea it would even come into their mind. In most cases, they are so far from actually doing anything related to the thought, and that's why they are so distraught. This leads to penitential behavior, and compulsions, etc. Sometimes figuring out if they're just obsessing because they're worried about a thought, versus actually perseverating over a potentially actionable drive, is really really difficult. Not saying you have OCD, it's just a whole area that can lead to seriously debilitating problems for some individuals.

foobarbecue 4y ago
Interesting; that makes a lot of sense. This insight makes me think there's a continuum between brains set to "control all thoughts" and brains set to "autmatically explore all possibilities." I think I'm pretty neurotypical and fall somewhere in the middle, but I can see how a minor change in that "setting" would have a big impact on my behavior.
- rhacker 4y ago
  That's the main difference between OCD and not.
justsocrateasin 4y ago
I actually feel like this is a good argument for normalizing the fact that probably everyone has thoughts about suicide (as OP said, thinking about the implications versus considering). I remember a period of my life where I was struggling a bit more than normal with anxiety, and my creative / intrusive brain was like "how about you think on the concept of suicide?" to which my brain responded "wow now you're thinking about suicide, you should really seek help". In reality, it was just an intrusive thought. But the fact that my brain jumped on that thought, and ruminated on it as "if the thought popped into my head, maybe I'm not OK", that was the thing that caused problems.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago

I think it is possible and I think it helps to explore what you don't think about. Everyone has things that never/rarely occur to them to consider performing as an action, even people with significantly broader consideration-spheres than others. For example, I've considered suicide but never going pro in ballet. I've considered stealing from my employer but never becoming an opera influencer. I'm less athletic than a sibling of mine, so things like vaulting over fences/climbing trees aren't things I that would even occur to me to perform but my sibling is always thinking of ways they can get over and around physical obstacles with their body. I don't think that it's some people follow prescribed paths. I think everyone has familiar and less-familiar paths, and some paths are totally out of the way. And I think the overlap of what's considered familiar and what's considered out of the way have much less overlap than is commonly understood.

dsr_ 4y ago
Unfortunately, now I have considered going pro in ballet (result: not going to happen), becoming an opera influencer (result: highly unlikely but not absolutely impossible; can I reasonably work towards the return of the comic operetta? Probably not without writing one. I could manage the book but not the music. Who do I know who might want to write the music?) and I have frequently considered but discarded the likelihood of vaulting over most fences and climbing most trees. Thanks.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  But that's the thing, right, you didn't consider those things before. There's no difference between not having considered suicide and not having considered pro ballet and it doesn't reflect anything about you in particular. That's why I'm saying I don't think it's incomprehensible that some people just haven't thought of things you've considered before. Because obviously you also haven't thought of things to consider until someone else (myself) brought them up.

kibwen 4y ago

It boils down to a semantic argument. People have differing definitions of what it means to "think about committing suicide". If you're up on top of a tall object and happen to imagine yourself plummeting over the edge even without any intention to do so, some people will consider that "thinking about it", and some people won't. The useful interpretation is to exercise empathy and put yourself in the mind of the person writing the questionnaire, and ask what definition they are likely using. For example, your therapist doesn't care if you had a random intrusive thought thirty years ago, they care if you presently have actual designs of self-harm. Likewise, in the OP, the person interpreting the security clearance doesn't care if you were accidentally caught up in a silly witch hunt when you were 12.

Atheros 4y ago
It's impractical for everyone and impossible for some people to interpret every question through the lens of the person asking the question. The use of American euphemisms is constantly changing and it is unreasonable to expect non-native English speakers or neurodivergent people to keep up. Practice empathy. Guess at others' intent in order to do your best to give others the information that they want. But then insist that they use plain English in the future and that doing otherwise is wrong. https://sneak.berlin/20191201/american-communication/ https://sneak.berlin/20191201/american-communication/
- bityard 4y ago
  > if you speak directly, what will be heard by your listeners is whatever your statements are presumed to imply, not what is actually stated—regardless of whether or not those implications are intended or not. This pretty well sums up my experience of the HN comments section.
foobarbecue 4y ago
I agree that one should attempt to answer the /intended/ question. In this case, however, it wasn't semantic. My ex and I were on the same page as to how we were using "think". She was claiming that by our shared definition of think, most people didn't, and we did.

photochemsyn 4y ago

That might be related to why it's such a taboo subject - people fear that even mentioning the word 'suicide' will cause some people to starting making deliberate plans to end their own life. (It's certainly a rather depressing topic, not suitable for small talk or dinner conversation, and people who are always bringing it up probably could use some therapist time.) The effect is similar to the statement, "don't think of a blue elephant" - it's pretty hard to not immediately think of some kind of a blue elephant (Dumbo the Disney character? A wild African elephant that got blue mud all over it? A painted elephant in a Indian potentate's parade? Etc.) Psychologists use the term 'ideation' to distinguish between merely thinking about a topic, versus obsessing over a topic, making plans related to a topic, and so on.