5 ms·

https://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html https://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html Other poster posted the same link but is getting downvoted so might get overloo

https://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html https://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html Other poster posted the same link but is getting downvoted so might get overlooked.

082349872349872 4y ago
By way of context, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia would not be settled until 1967. (but note also that these "race" questions were all over US forms well into the 1980s. By my time, however, it appears that "mongrel" answers were being routinely coded as "Decline To State") Lagniappe: anyone curious about actual Caucasian phenotypes can find them on Youtube, eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTdXQabTTRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTdXQabTTRg
- TheCoelacanth 4y ago
  Virginia still required you to answer a race question to get a marriage license until 2019[1]. "Decline to Answer" wasn't an option, though in some counties "Octoroon" (meaning 7/8 white, 1/8 black), "Mulato" and "Aryan" were options[2]. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/virginia-couples-no-longer-have-to-disclose-race-on-marriage-license-applications-state-attorney-general-says/2019/09/14/4f40d578-d6fb-11e9-9610-fb56c5522e1c_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/virginia-... [2] https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/couples-sue-over-virginias-race-labels-for-marriage/65-ccd465c4-b67a-4918-8a06-62d388fdff18 https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/couples-sue-over-vi...
ant6n 4y ago
This one actually has a programming related lesson at the end!
omnibrain 4y ago
Richard Feynman had a similar anecdote involving "skin tone".
pjc50 4y ago
Tremendous essay. As someone else pointed out, this was back when Virginia was still an apartheid state, in the process of getting desegregation imposed on it; racial categorization was an important weapon of the state against some of its citizens, and not one they were going to give up easily in the face of some guy (correctly) declaring it nonsensical. There's so much Seeing Like A State in the punchcard incident as well. Having invented the categories, you must be made to fit them. These days plenty of people will say "well, of course he's right, you can't jam everyone into racial/ethnicity categories, and you shouldn't" then turn around and code gender as an immutable M/F binary in their database.
saalweachter 4y ago
> I will probably never know. I wonder if the author got his answer through modern DNA ancestry.
prmoustache 4y ago
I never understood that obsession and unwillingless to give up that broken concept of race/ethnicity in the USA.
- pjc50 4y ago
  Large areas of the US were, in a very literal sense, built out of racism. While the most overt racism has mostly been pushed out of the public, legal and media spheres, large quantities remain as a sort of Superfund site just below the surface. Plenty of people from that era are still alive, like Elizabeth Eckford against whom the Arkansas National Guard was deployed to prevent her from going to school. Hatred against miscegenation was so high that there was an entire legal structure to prevent ""mongrels"" from existing, so somebody writing that on their form is going to cause conniptions.
nottorp 4y ago
> The security people apparently found it impractical to obtain the hour or two of a programmer's time that would have been needed to fix the code I laughed so hard.
adastra22 4y ago
My former boss has similar experience with TSA and customs. His father in law runs a farm back in his home country, and he usually goes once to visit whenever he is there. So, technically, he visited a farm which is one of the questions on most immigration forms. As a resident alien without a green card, he usually gets the 9th degree from TSA and customs. He has found, however, that if he checks this box they immediately start grilling him about the "farm" he says he stayed at. Once he explains "Oh no, it's a farmhouse. I visited my father in law for dinner one night. I didn't do any farm work or walk in the fields." they stamp his form and let him go. They never ask (or even check, as far as he can tell) anything else. Moral: give the agent an easy problem to find, but one with a simple solution in your favor. They will never look for a 2nd problem.
- halifaxbeard 4y ago
  On the declaration when entering Canada there’s the same question, along with this similar one: “ Meat, fish, seafood, eggs, dairy products, fruits, vegetables, seeds, nuts, plants, flowers, wood, animals, birds, insects, and any parts, products or by-products of any of the foregoing.” I check yes because I have a half eaten chocolate bar in my backpack. They ask what I have and I tell them, and immediately send me on my way, it’s great.
petesergeant 4y ago
From that article: > He also remarked that they had asked him if he knew me socially and that he had answered "Yes, we just celebrated Guy Fawkes Day together". When the investigator wanted to know "What is Guy Fawkes Day?" he started to explain the gunpowder plot but thought better of it. He settled for the explanation that "It's a British holiday".
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

https://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html https://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html Other poster posted the same link but is getting downvoted so might get overlooked.

082349872349872 4y ago

By way of context, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia would not be settled until 1967. (but note also that these "race" questions were all over US forms well into the 1980s. By my time, however, it appears that "mongrel" answers were being routinely coded as "Decline To State") Lagniappe: anyone curious about actual Caucasian phenotypes can find them on Youtube, eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTdXQabTTRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTdXQabTTRg

TheCoelacanth 4y ago
Virginia still required you to answer a race question to get a marriage license until 2019[1]. "Decline to Answer" wasn't an option, though in some counties "Octoroon" (meaning 7/8 white, 1/8 black), "Mulato" and "Aryan" were options[2]. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/virginia-couples-no-longer-have-to-disclose-race-on-marriage-license-applications-state-attorney-general-says/2019/09/14/4f40d578-d6fb-11e9-9610-fb56c5522e1c_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/virginia-... [2] https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/couples-sue-over-virginias-race-labels-for-marriage/65-ccd465c4-b67a-4918-8a06-62d388fdff18 https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/couples-sue-over-vi...

ant6n 4y ago

This one actually has a programming related lesson at the end!

omnibrain 4y ago

Richard Feynman had a similar anecdote involving "skin tone".

pjc50 4y ago

Tremendous essay. As someone else pointed out, this was back when Virginia was still an apartheid state, in the process of getting desegregation imposed on it; racial categorization was an important weapon of the state against some of its citizens, and not one they were going to give up easily in the face of some guy (correctly) declaring it nonsensical. There's so much Seeing Like A State in the punchcard incident as well. Having invented the categories, you must be made to fit them. These days plenty of people will say "well, of course he's right, you can't jam everyone into racial/ethnicity categories, and you shouldn't" then turn around and code gender as an immutable M/F binary in their database.

saalweachter 4y ago

> I will probably never know. I wonder if the author got his answer through modern DNA ancestry.

prmoustache 4y ago

I never understood that obsession and unwillingless to give up that broken concept of race/ethnicity in the USA.

pjc50 4y ago
Large areas of the US were, in a very literal sense, built out of racism. While the most overt racism has mostly been pushed out of the public, legal and media spheres, large quantities remain as a sort of Superfund site just below the surface. Plenty of people from that era are still alive, like Elizabeth Eckford against whom the Arkansas National Guard was deployed to prevent her from going to school. Hatred against miscegenation was so high that there was an entire legal structure to prevent ""mongrels"" from existing, so somebody writing that on their form is going to cause conniptions.

nottorp 4y ago

> The security people apparently found it impractical to obtain the hour or two of a programmer's time that would have been needed to fix the code I laughed so hard.

adastra22 4y ago

My former boss has similar experience with TSA and customs. His father in law runs a farm back in his home country, and he usually goes once to visit whenever he is there. So, technically, he visited a farm which is one of the questions on most immigration forms. As a resident alien without a green card, he usually gets the 9th degree from TSA and customs. He has found, however, that if he checks this box they immediately start grilling him about the "farm" he says he stayed at. Once he explains "Oh no, it's a farmhouse. I visited my father in law for dinner one night. I didn't do any farm work or walk in the fields." they stamp his form and let him go. They never ask (or even check, as far as he can tell) anything else. Moral: give the agent an easy problem to find, but one with a simple solution in your favor. They will never look for a 2nd problem.

halifaxbeard 4y ago
On the declaration when entering Canada there’s the same question, along with this similar one: “ Meat, fish, seafood, eggs, dairy products, fruits, vegetables, seeds, nuts, plants, flowers, wood, animals, birds, insects, and any parts, products or by-products of any of the foregoing.” I check yes because I have a half eaten chocolate bar in my backpack. They ask what I have and I tell them, and immediately send me on my way, it’s great.

petesergeant 4y ago

From that article: > He also remarked that they had asked him if he knew me socially and that he had answered "Yes, we just celebrated Guy Fawkes Day together". When the investigator wanted to know "What is Guy Fawkes Day?" he started to explain the gunpowder plot but thought better of it. He settled for the explanation that "It's a British holiday".

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]