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My second paragraph was specifically talking about the gigantic difference between operating a stateful application vs. a more typical stateless app + stateful

My second paragraph was specifically talking about the gigantic difference between operating a stateful application vs. a more typical stateless app + stateful DB. Most people aren’t deploying to Fly.io (yet!), so making Litestream work sounds pretty high risk to me :) combined with the lack of pedigree I led with, I just don’t see litestream as a good answer to “I need a HA database solution” for most people.

tptacek 4y ago
Litestream isn't a Fly.io feature.
- hamandcheese 4y ago
  No, but the ability to deploy it on stateful containers is.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I'm sorry, I don't understand any word of that sentence (for instance: we don't run containers?). We sponsor Litestream and LiteFS (in the sense that we pay Ben to work on it full time), but no part of Litestream is baked into or in any way coupled with our platform. If you can run Litestream on Fly.io, you can run it anywhere else.
    - hamandcheese 4y ago
      > for instance: we don't run containers? You "transmogrify container images into Firecracker micro-VMs" - surely you knew what I meant? And there is no denying that fly.io is a _particularly_ well suited platform to run stateful SQLite apps (with or without Litestream), since fly makes running stateful applications easy. I think thats awesome. I'm really confused why you seem to be trying to distance yourself from that, and why you are latching on so hard to my passing mention of fly. I wasn't making a dig, just pointing out that most people are stuck with (arguably worse) platforms that don't lend themself to stateful, "in-core" databases.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        My confusion is that there's nothing container-y about Litestream. It works anywhere SQLite does. I like our platform a lot, but I mean, Litestream works just as well on AWS. I'm just confused, is all. :)
chillfox 4y ago
For most of the world (outside silicon valley) stateless is not the typical. The typical is stateful app + stateful DB run on stateful VMs. For most enterprises, running a stateful app with SQLite is not only possible, it's easier than running stateless apps as their entire IT infrastructure is setup to support stateful apps and it's what their sysadmins know how to do. I have tried to deploy stateless docker container apps into a typical enterprise network and it's a nightmare. The people done understand it, are not interested in understanding it, none of the infrastructure supports it and if you want to setup something like Kubernetes then you end up in configuration hell as none of the easy to deploy standard setups actually work out of the box in an enterprise network, everything ends up needing highly customized configuration to work.

tptacek 4y ago

Litestream isn't a Fly.io feature.

hamandcheese 4y ago
No, but the ability to deploy it on stateful containers is.
- tptacek 4y ago
  I'm sorry, I don't understand any word of that sentence (for instance: we don't run containers?). We sponsor Litestream and LiteFS (in the sense that we pay Ben to work on it full time), but no part of Litestream is baked into or in any way coupled with our platform. If you can run Litestream on Fly.io, you can run it anywhere else.
  - hamandcheese 4y ago
    > for instance: we don't run containers? You "transmogrify container images into Firecracker micro-VMs" - surely you knew what I meant? And there is no denying that fly.io is a _particularly_ well suited platform to run stateful SQLite apps (with or without Litestream), since fly makes running stateful applications easy. I think thats awesome. I'm really confused why you seem to be trying to distance yourself from that, and why you are latching on so hard to my passing mention of fly. I wasn't making a dig, just pointing out that most people are stuck with (arguably worse) platforms that don't lend themself to stateful, "in-core" databases.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      My confusion is that there's nothing container-y about Litestream. It works anywhere SQLite does. I like our platform a lot, but I mean, Litestream works just as well on AWS. I'm just confused, is all. :)

chillfox 4y ago

For most of the world (outside silicon valley) stateless is not the typical. The typical is stateful app + stateful DB run on stateful VMs. For most enterprises, running a stateful app with SQLite is not only possible, it's easier than running stateless apps as their entire IT infrastructure is setup to support stateful apps and it's what their sysadmins know how to do. I have tried to deploy stateless docker container apps into a typical enterprise network and it's a nightmare. The people done understand it, are not interested in understanding it, none of the infrastructure supports it and if you want to setup something like Kubernetes then you end up in configuration hell as none of the easy to deploy standard setups actually work out of the box in an enterprise network, everything ends up needing highly customized configuration to work.