27 ms·

Text width is important, but this is not a solution, zooming and changing browser window geometry is.

by nsajko 4y ago

bearmode 4y ago
What an absolutely absurd thing to say.
gpm 4y ago
Mac OS (and some linux desktops) seems to really expect you to manage windows by having them always be full screen and swiping between desktops. Which makes changing browser window geometry sub-optimal. Even on desktops where it's reasonably easy, it's pretty annoying to have to resize the window when you go to different sites to get them to format properly.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  It's not necessarily a function of the linux desktop. I use xfce, but it would be entirely easy to work with non-full-screen windows for my browser, emacs, clementine etc. However, I choose not, and use workspaces to spread things out.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  > Mac OS … seems to really expect you to manage windows by having them always be full screen and swiping between desktops. Which makes changing browser window geometry sub-optimal. That hasn't been my experience at all, in fact for me macOS works better when windows are mostly sized to fit their content. Windows and Windows-like Linux DEs is where I feel pressure to maximize everything.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    I agree. Anecdotally, I also see more PCs with maximized windows in the wild, and more Macs with smaller windows. (I don't really see many people using Linux in the wild.)
    - gpm 4y ago
      Interesting. I'm curious if you're seeing this on desktops? My sample of mac users is very heavily biased towards laptops (and I've only used macos on a laptop) - but I've seen the exact opposite.
      - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
        Desktops and laptops. I do see more Mac users with maximized and/or full screen windows on particularly small laptops. (And I'll note that in my own usage, when I'm on my 11" Macbook Air I full screen most apps. But that's a weird edge case due to the screen size.)
        glacials 4y ago
        Considering how the macOS maximize button works I’d wager this dichotomy is at least partway intentional by Apple, to stop you from falling into the Windows habit of “maximize everything even if it means half your screen is blank”.
  - thiht 4y ago
    Agree, and this is one of the things that infuriates me with macOS. The new "Settings" app can't even be maximized horizontally anymore.
- zetalyrae 4y ago
  I have a 4K monitor and I have Wikipedia at 200% zoom at all times. It works fine and I prefer it to the alternative.
tasty_freeze 4y ago
I'm not saying you are wrong, but it is wrong for me. I have a browser with say 8 tabs open. When I switch between tabs, I don't want to have to keep resizing the browser geometry.
- jonas-w 4y ago
  But zoom is only for the current tab, so no need to keep resizing
  - nequo 4y ago
    Increasing zoom to reduce words per line is a hack though. Why would I want to read Wikipedia in a larger font than I read other websites?
debesyla 4y ago
I'm sorry, but zooming is just... dumb... at least for me, sorry. Having a giant text doesn't help the readability - at least for me :( And it's not like changing window size only when visting Wiki is a good solution too - it's nuisance to change window size when you came for a quick 30 second read. At least for me.
- JellyBeanThief 4y ago
  Plus if I change the browser geometry, that messes up the other pages I have open in other tabs. Not to mention the other apps my TWM manages.
- maxbond 4y ago
  Accessibility is individual. I'll be reading Wikipedia articles at 200% now, like I do for virtually all one-column layouts. And this Wikipedia layout has good responsiveness, so no worries.
  - SECProto 4y ago
    You could also just log in to an account and set your own theme. My account is still one the 2005 theme as it works best for me.
ashton314 4y ago
I think if you really want full-width text, you could write a little custom CSS to make it work how you want it. As it stands, I think the new design is a much better default for most people. Also, zooming and changing browser window size is, while only a keystroke away, isn’t something I want to do just to make a site that should be optimized for reading text more legible. It should just default to that way. In short, I’m sorry this doesn’t fit your flow. That’s frustrating. But I think this is a better design. Matthew Butterick’s Practical Typography seems to support this view. [1] (MB is a lawyer, typographer, and Racket programmer for those not familiar with his work.) [1]: https://practicaltypography.com/page-margins.html#on-the-web https://practicaltypography.com/page-margins.html#on-the-web
- trynewideas 4y ago
  Not all uses of Wikipedia are the types of reading supported by works and research in long-form reading. Hell, many, many Wikipedia articles aren't long-form, and paragraph text is a minority of content on some table-heavy articles. The issue isn't with width but a lack of user preferences, logged in and not. You don't need user accounts, cookies, persistence, or frankly even Javascript to change the content width on an article. The skin designer can set the best practice for a contrived ideal use case as the default, and still let anyone with other use cases expand the content's max-width to fill more space. EDIT: Looks like they added one — there's now a "Toggle limited content width" button now appearing for me in the bottom-right corner of the wider desktop views.
- lmm 4y ago
  > I think if you really want full-width text, you could write a little custom CSS to make it work how you want it. How? Seriously, if you have a way to do this that works for pages in general I'll be extremely grateful. I tried using a user stylesheet that said * { max-width: 100% !important } for a while, but that breaks too many non-root elements on all sorts of sites. Whereas making the page narrow when it doesn't set a max-width seems very easy to do with a custom stylesheet.
  - spiralx 4y ago

Text width is important, but this is not a solution, zooming and changing browser window geometry is.

by nsajko 4y ago

Text width is important, but this is not a solution, zooming and changing browser window geometry is.

bearmode 4y ago

What an absolutely absurd thing to say.

gpm 4y ago

Mac OS (and some linux desktops) seems to really expect you to manage windows by having them always be full screen and swiping between desktops. Which makes changing browser window geometry sub-optimal. Even on desktops where it's reasonably easy, it's pretty annoying to have to resize the window when you go to different sites to get them to format properly.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
It's not necessarily a function of the linux desktop. I use xfce, but it would be entirely easy to work with non-full-screen windows for my browser, emacs, clementine etc. However, I choose not, and use workspaces to spread things out.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
> Mac OS … seems to really expect you to manage windows by having them always be full screen and swiping between desktops. Which makes changing browser window geometry sub-optimal. That hasn't been my experience at all, in fact for me macOS works better when windows are mostly sized to fit their content. Windows and Windows-like Linux DEs is where I feel pressure to maximize everything.
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  I agree. Anecdotally, I also see more PCs with maximized windows in the wild, and more Macs with smaller windows. (I don't really see many people using Linux in the wild.)
  - gpm 4y ago
    Interesting. I'm curious if you're seeing this on desktops? My sample of mac users is very heavily biased towards laptops (and I've only used macos on a laptop) - but I've seen the exact opposite.
    - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
      Desktops and laptops. I do see more Mac users with maximized and/or full screen windows on particularly small laptops. (And I'll note that in my own usage, when I'm on my 11" Macbook Air I full screen most apps. But that's a weird edge case due to the screen size.)
      - glacials 4y ago
        Considering how the macOS maximize button works I’d wager this dichotomy is at least partway intentional by Apple, to stop you from falling into the Windows habit of “maximize everything even if it means half your screen is blank”.
- thiht 4y ago
  Agree, and this is one of the things that infuriates me with macOS. The new "Settings" app can't even be maximized horizontally anymore.
zetalyrae 4y ago
I have a 4K monitor and I have Wikipedia at 200% zoom at all times. It works fine and I prefer it to the alternative.

tasty_freeze 4y ago

I'm not saying you are wrong, but it is wrong for me. I have a browser with say 8 tabs open. When I switch between tabs, I don't want to have to keep resizing the browser geometry.

jonas-w 4y ago
But zoom is only for the current tab, so no need to keep resizing
- nequo 4y ago
  Increasing zoom to reduce words per line is a hack though. Why would I want to read Wikipedia in a larger font than I read other websites?

debesyla 4y ago

I'm sorry, but zooming is just... dumb... at least for me, sorry. Having a giant text doesn't help the readability - at least for me :( And it's not like changing window size only when visting Wiki is a good solution too - it's nuisance to change window size when you came for a quick 30 second read. At least for me.

JellyBeanThief 4y ago
Plus if I change the browser geometry, that messes up the other pages I have open in other tabs. Not to mention the other apps my TWM manages.
maxbond 4y ago
Accessibility is individual. I'll be reading Wikipedia articles at 200% now, like I do for virtually all one-column layouts. And this Wikipedia layout has good responsiveness, so no worries.
- SECProto 4y ago
  You could also just log in to an account and set your own theme. My account is still one the 2005 theme as it works best for me.

ashton314 4y ago

I think if you really want full-width text, you could write a little custom CSS to make it work how you want it. As it stands, I think the new design is a much better default for most people. Also, zooming and changing browser window size is, while only a keystroke away, isn’t something I want to do just to make a site that should be optimized for reading text more legible. It should just default to that way. In short, I’m sorry this doesn’t fit your flow. That’s frustrating. But I think this is a better design. Matthew Butterick’s Practical Typography seems to support this view. [1] (MB is a lawyer, typographer, and Racket programmer for those not familiar with his work.) [1]: https://practicaltypography.com/page-margins.html#on-the-web https://practicaltypography.com/page-margins.html#on-the-web

trynewideas 4y ago
Not all uses of Wikipedia are the types of reading supported by works and research in long-form reading. Hell, many, many Wikipedia articles aren't long-form, and paragraph text is a minority of content on some table-heavy articles. The issue isn't with width but a lack of user preferences, logged in and not. You don't need user accounts, cookies, persistence, or frankly even Javascript to change the content width on an article. The skin designer can set the best practice for a contrived ideal use case as the default, and still let anyone with other use cases expand the content's max-width to fill more space. EDIT: Looks like they added one — there's now a "Toggle limited content width" button now appearing for me in the bottom-right corner of the wider desktop views.
lmm 4y ago
> I think if you really want full-width text, you could write a little custom CSS to make it work how you want it. How? Seriously, if you have a way to do this that works for pages in general I'll be extremely grateful. I tried using a user stylesheet that said * { max-width: 100% !important } for a while, but that breaks too many non-root elements on all sorts of sites. Whereas making the page narrow when it doesn't set a max-width seems very easy to do with a custom stylesheet.
- spiralx 4y ago