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Coming from the web dev space into backend on a project that heavily relies on PDF generation, I would say that something like a PDF often cannot be expressed w

Coming from the web dev space into backend on a project that heavily relies on PDF generation, I would say that something like a PDF often cannot be expressed with just markup and a stylesheet. There's a large difference in something like the web (it must be expressed with some fluidity of layout) compared to a very static document like a PDF. Page breaks, readability, print supply, watermarks, paging, etc all has to be considered.

aidos 4y ago
I feel like all of that can be done in markup.
- layer8 4y ago
  It can, but it’ll become something complex and Turing-complete like LaTeX.
- kgwxd 4y ago
  I've worked with PDF markup tools built on libriaries like this for 20 years, both third-party and in-house custom. It usually takes 10 minutes to find out the markup doesn't support what is required for the task. Third-party you have to find a hack or drop it all together. In-house you can maybe add something in, but you'll have to do it fast, and if you can't break it down into a general-purpose feature (which you probably can't because the fundamental philosophy of your "easy" markup language wasn't designed with anything like this in mind) so you'll just have to uglify the markup language even more or, again, drop it all together. Code is the only sane way.
  - aidos 4y ago
    Well sure, as ever, it depends on your usecase. PDF is an insanely complex spec (I’ve spent more time reading it than most because I need to know bits of it for my job and I just generally find it fascinating). But a lot of devs just need to put some content on the screen to match a template they were given. In my experience, a complete enough markup language allows you to bang out and maintain those templates better than code. I know it doesn’t suit every need, but it’s just a way of representing the data so it’s closer to the final output than imperative code is. Definitely take your point though about the limitations becoming dealbreakers.
    - MarcinZiabek 4y ago
      What if the code resembles the markup language in terms of readability, but still gives you access to more advanced features? Surely, there is space for various approaches, it all depends on your task and requirements

aidos 4y ago

I feel like all of that can be done in markup.

layer8 4y ago
It can, but it’ll become something complex and Turing-complete like LaTeX.
kgwxd 4y ago
I've worked with PDF markup tools built on libriaries like this for 20 years, both third-party and in-house custom. It usually takes 10 minutes to find out the markup doesn't support what is required for the task. Third-party you have to find a hack or drop it all together. In-house you can maybe add something in, but you'll have to do it fast, and if you can't break it down into a general-purpose feature (which you probably can't because the fundamental philosophy of your "easy" markup language wasn't designed with anything like this in mind) so you'll just have to uglify the markup language even more or, again, drop it all together. Code is the only sane way.
- aidos 4y ago
  Well sure, as ever, it depends on your usecase. PDF is an insanely complex spec (I’ve spent more time reading it than most because I need to know bits of it for my job and I just generally find it fascinating). But a lot of devs just need to put some content on the screen to match a template they were given. In my experience, a complete enough markup language allows you to bang out and maintain those templates better than code. I know it doesn’t suit every need, but it’s just a way of representing the data so it’s closer to the final output than imperative code is. Definitely take your point though about the limitations becoming dealbreakers.
  - MarcinZiabek 4y ago
    What if the code resembles the markup language in terms of readability, but still gives you access to more advanced features? Surely, there is space for various approaches, it all depends on your task and requirements