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But how many of those used 3090s have been run 24/7 by crypto farms?

kkielhofner 4y ago
I'll take a retired crypto mining card over a random desktop/gamer card any day. Crypto cards are almost always run with lower power limits, managed operating temperature ranges, fixed fan speeds, cleaner environments, etc. They're also typically installed, configured, and managed by "professionals". Eventual resell of cards is part of the profit/business model of miners so they're generally much better about care and feeding of the cards, storing boxes/accessories/packing supplies, etc. Compared to a desktop/gamer card with sporadic usage (more hot/cold cycles), power maxed out for a couple more FPS, running in unknown environmental conditions (temperature control for humans, vape/smoke residue, cat hair, who knows) and installed by anyone.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Hard disagree, honestly. A mining card might be undervolted, but it will always have lived under sustained VRAM temps of 80c+. That's awful for the lifespan of the GPU (even relative to bursty gaming workloads) and once the memory dies, it's game over for the card. Used GPUs are always a gamble, but mostly because it depends on how used they are. No matter how you slice it, a mining card is more likely to hit the bathtub curve than a gaming one.
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    Source on the VRAM temp issue? The common lore after the last mining crash (~2018) was to avoid mining cards at all costs. We're far enough along at this point where even most of the people at /r/pcmasterrace no longer subscribe to the "mining card bad" viewpoint - presumably because plenty of people chime in with "bought an ex-mining card in 2018, was skeptical, still running strong". Time will tell again in this latest post-mining era.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      While you're not wrong, PCMR is basically the single largest central of survivorship bias on the internet. There probably are people with functional mining cards, but like I said in my original comment, hardware failure runs along a bathtub curve[0]. The chance of mechanical failure increases proportionally with use; leaving mining GPUs particularly affected. How strong that influence is can be debated, but people are right to highlight an increased failure rate in mining cards. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve
      - kkielhofner 4y ago
        Not sure I'd go as far as "single largest central of survivorship bias on the internet" but I understand the sentiment. As another commenter noted used RTX 3xxx series cards are at most two years old. Given the anticipated lifetime of a card as the Bathtub Curve applies I'd argue any surviving used card is pretty firmly in "escaped infant mortality" territory. This applies to gamer cards as well (of course) but this is where my other points apply. Anecdotal but in 2017 I had 200 GTX 1xxx cards for a personal mining project (it was interesting). From what I remember I experienced <5 card failures within the first few months but smooth sailing otherwise. I kept a few for personal use and eventually sold the rest with a handful of them (small sample size, I know) going to personal friends. They're all still running strong. For the remainder that were sold on eBay I only had one return (it was fine, of course) and all of the reviews were impeccable - along the lines of "I know this card was used to mine but I'd swear it's new 10/10". Note that I was very clear and transparent that they were used for mining in the item description and I even included pictures of the mining environment in the listings. My eBay account is still active and I haven't heard anything from a single customer over the past three years (I assume they'd come back in the event of a card failure). I think 200 cards is a large enough sample size to bolster my argument. As another commenter also noted many of them are being sold as new. This is typical crypto ecosystem shadiness but for a miner to be able to even pass a card off as new speaks to the high level of care higher-volume professional mining operations employ. For modern Nvidia GPUs (even going back to Pascal) I'd argue anything used for less than two years is essentially burn-in testing.
      - 4y ago
  - tverbeure 4y ago
    A 30xx series GPU is at most about 2 years old. Silicon processes are often qualified for a 10 year *continuous* operating lifetime, and that’s for junction temperatures that are much higher than 80C. For example this TI report mentions a typical lifetime of 10 years at 105C.
- kika 4y ago
  And also often crazily overclocked
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    Exactly. It's more or less common practice for the average gamer to push the card right up to the point of visual artifacts, desktop freezing, etc. Basically "go in MSI Afterburner and crank it up until the machine crashes".
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
jszymborski 4y ago
a surprising number are claiming to be Brand New in Box. Perhaps old scalper stock or maybe even resealed crypto cards.

I'll take a retired crypto mining card over a random desktop/gamer card any day. Crypto cards are almost always run with lower power limits, managed operating temperature ranges, fixed fan speeds, cleaner environments, etc. They're also typically installed, configured, and managed by "professionals". Eventual resell of cards is part of the profit/business model of miners so they're generally much better about care and feeding of the cards, storing boxes/accessories/packing supplies, etc. Compared to a desktop/gamer card with sporadic usage (more hot/cold cycles), power maxed out for a couple more FPS, running in unknown environmental conditions (temperature control for humans, vape/smoke residue, cat hair, who knows) and installed by anyone.

smoldesu 4y ago
Hard disagree, honestly. A mining card might be undervolted, but it will always have lived under sustained VRAM temps of 80c+. That's awful for the lifespan of the GPU (even relative to bursty gaming workloads) and once the memory dies, it's game over for the card. Used GPUs are always a gamble, but mostly because it depends on how used they are. No matter how you slice it, a mining card is more likely to hit the bathtub curve than a gaming one.
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  Source on the VRAM temp issue? The common lore after the last mining crash (~2018) was to avoid mining cards at all costs. We're far enough along at this point where even most of the people at /r/pcmasterrace no longer subscribe to the "mining card bad" viewpoint - presumably because plenty of people chime in with "bought an ex-mining card in 2018, was skeptical, still running strong". Time will tell again in this latest post-mining era.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    While you're not wrong, PCMR is basically the single largest central of survivorship bias on the internet. There probably are people with functional mining cards, but like I said in my original comment, hardware failure runs along a bathtub curve[0]. The chance of mechanical failure increases proportionally with use; leaving mining GPUs particularly affected. How strong that influence is can be debated, but people are right to highlight an increased failure rate in mining cards. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve
    - kkielhofner 4y ago
      Not sure I'd go as far as "single largest central of survivorship bias on the internet" but I understand the sentiment. As another commenter noted used RTX 3xxx series cards are at most two years old. Given the anticipated lifetime of a card as the Bathtub Curve applies I'd argue any surviving used card is pretty firmly in "escaped infant mortality" territory. This applies to gamer cards as well (of course) but this is where my other points apply. Anecdotal but in 2017 I had 200 GTX 1xxx cards for a personal mining project (it was interesting). From what I remember I experienced <5 card failures within the first few months but smooth sailing otherwise. I kept a few for personal use and eventually sold the rest with a handful of them (small sample size, I know) going to personal friends. They're all still running strong. For the remainder that were sold on eBay I only had one return (it was fine, of course) and all of the reviews were impeccable - along the lines of "I know this card was used to mine but I'd swear it's new 10/10". Note that I was very clear and transparent that they were used for mining in the item description and I even included pictures of the mining environment in the listings. My eBay account is still active and I haven't heard anything from a single customer over the past three years (I assume they'd come back in the event of a card failure). I think 200 cards is a large enough sample size to bolster my argument. As another commenter also noted many of them are being sold as new. This is typical crypto ecosystem shadiness but for a miner to be able to even pass a card off as new speaks to the high level of care higher-volume professional mining operations employ. For modern Nvidia GPUs (even going back to Pascal) I'd argue anything used for less than two years is essentially burn-in testing.
    - 4y ago
- tverbeure 4y ago
  A 30xx series GPU is at most about 2 years old. Silicon processes are often qualified for a 10 year *continuous* operating lifetime, and that’s for junction temperatures that are much higher than 80C. For example this TI report mentions a typical lifetime of 10 years at 105C.
kika 4y ago
And also often crazily overclocked
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  Exactly. It's more or less common practice for the average gamer to push the card right up to the point of visual artifacts, desktop freezing, etc. Basically "go in MSI Afterburner and crank it up until the machine crashes".
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

jszymborski 4y ago

a surprising number are claiming to be Brand New in Box. Perhaps old scalper stock or maybe even resealed crypto cards.