4 ms·

Example #N of a loud, coast-dwelling, white-collar minority overruling a silent majority. Go to a shitty bar and find someone who doesn’t look like you and ask

Example #N of a loud, coast-dwelling, white-collar minority overruling a silent majority. Go to a shitty bar and find someone who doesn’t look like you and ask them if they think you should be able to post topless women unrestricted. Statistically the answer is no.

amanaplanacanal 4y ago
At one point I’m sure you could have asked whether black people should be allowed to marry white people, and gotten the same answer. I’m not sure that’s a good argument.
- subjectsigma 4y ago
  I think it’s pretty crude to conflate the literal civil rights movement and the campaign to “free” female nipples. However, I will point out that that change, while good and necessary, also happened over time. MLK won hearts and minds, he didn’t flip an algorithmic switch and decide for the population.
  - inetknght 4y ago
    > I think it’s pretty crude to conflate the literal civil rights movement and the campaign to “free” female nipples. I agree it's a bit of a low-brow comparison. But nonetheless I think the comparison is apt.
  - generj 4y ago
    He largely did not win hearts and minds. What he did win was the court and a loud enough minority that politicians had to cave. When your cause can sign up an innumerable amount of clean dressed people to volunteer for mob attacks and imprisonment, society has to respect you lest these same committed souls decide dying for the cause might as well require enemies to the cause die as well. The Black Panthers and others had about reached that point, and the implicit threat that if society doesn’t create a true peace society doesn’t get peace was what created a civil rights victory. MLK Jr. was among the most controversial and least liked members of the country at his death and throughout his campaign for civil rights. Most people would have described the civil rights campaign as flipping a legislative switch deciding for the population.
    - subjectsigma 4y ago
      We are getting a little off topic, but… This isn’t what I was taught in school about MLK Jr. He was assassinated so obviously someone didn’t like him, but I always thought his movement was pretty instrumental on moving the needle and he was respected (if not liked) by white Americans. Googling around for a bit I could not seem to find reliable statistics on whether or not people supported him but it ranges anywhere from 45% to 70% of the population. Can you recommend a book on the topic or something? I’m actually curious now.
      - generj 4y ago
        We are definitely off topic but since we are just leaving the MLK Jr. Holiday so hopefully the forum will indulge our sidebar. I wish I had a good book for you. My friend probably has six, I may ask him for a recommendation later. There’s a growing movement that says nonviolent actors received too much of the credit for the Civil rights movement, with MLK Jr in particular getting outsized accolades. Giving him credit was very convenient as he was dead and could not directly condemn the current conditions. 40-60% is probably about right for general support for civil rights, but with major caveats. For example, 58% of people supported the Civil Rights Act but only 19% wanted it to be vigorously enforced [0]. So you see for example a backlash to school bussing, NYC schools not being integrated for decades after civil rights, etc. Northerners mostly supported civil rights so long as it only impacted those backwards Southerners but were not ready for real integration. Support for interracial marriage did not reach above 50% approval until in the 1990s despite being allowed nationally by the Supreme Court in 1967. That’s a good example IMO of how civil rights bypassed the slow change in opinion via the courts. The Harris poll [1] near his death had him at around 75% disapproval and only 50% black approval. Critically this was after he pivoted from a civil rights focus towards anti-war and anti-poverty (both in his mind an obvious extension of the civil rights movement - others did not agree). [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/01/16/50-years-ago-mixed-views-about-civil-rights-but-support-for-selma-demonstrators/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/01/16/50-years-ag... [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-king-had-75-percent-disapproval-rating-year-he-died-180968664/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-kin...
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
Pure speculation? Folks are smarter than that as a rule. They'd comment on how that would be cool, then how it would affect kids, then whether kids really care and so on. You know, real thoughtful conversation and not just name-calling.
- subjectsigma 4y ago
  Yes, what I posted was definitely just thoughtless name-calling, not in any way a reflection of my experience or any known facts. I’m so glad we have knowledgeable experts like you, high-brow academic nobles whose comments are here to educate with quality science. Thank you for constructing a quality argument and citing your sources. You’re really raising the bar for discussion on HN! Keep it up!
csa 4y ago
At many/most bars in these areas, the answer will be “yes”, and they may show you the background image on their phone with bare breasted women or will regale with stories about the “good ol’ days” with calendars at work that had bare-breasted women. If you go to churches in these areas, the stated preference may be “no”, but many of them will be lying. If you need evidence of these preferences, go to the infield of any NASCAR race. Or go to any spring break location where young people from these areas go to spring break. You will see more bare-breasted women than you can count at both of these places.
OkayPhysicist 4y ago
Coastal counties make up 40% of the US population. The myth of the "Average American" being some hick in Wyoming is just patently false.
- tmtvl 4y ago
  Isn't the population sparseness in the United States heartland also the raison d'être for the Electoral College? Anyway, speculating about what the majority of people think seems quite pointless as they themselves don't know.

amanaplanacanal 4y ago

At one point I’m sure you could have asked whether black people should be allowed to marry white people, and gotten the same answer. I’m not sure that’s a good argument.

subjectsigma 4y ago
I think it’s pretty crude to conflate the literal civil rights movement and the campaign to “free” female nipples. However, I will point out that that change, while good and necessary, also happened over time. MLK won hearts and minds, he didn’t flip an algorithmic switch and decide for the population.
- inetknght 4y ago
  > I think it’s pretty crude to conflate the literal civil rights movement and the campaign to “free” female nipples. I agree it's a bit of a low-brow comparison. But nonetheless I think the comparison is apt.
- generj 4y ago
  He largely did not win hearts and minds. What he did win was the court and a loud enough minority that politicians had to cave. When your cause can sign up an innumerable amount of clean dressed people to volunteer for mob attacks and imprisonment, society has to respect you lest these same committed souls decide dying for the cause might as well require enemies to the cause die as well. The Black Panthers and others had about reached that point, and the implicit threat that if society doesn’t create a true peace society doesn’t get peace was what created a civil rights victory. MLK Jr. was among the most controversial and least liked members of the country at his death and throughout his campaign for civil rights. Most people would have described the civil rights campaign as flipping a legislative switch deciding for the population.
  - subjectsigma 4y ago
    We are getting a little off topic, but… This isn’t what I was taught in school about MLK Jr. He was assassinated so obviously someone didn’t like him, but I always thought his movement was pretty instrumental on moving the needle and he was respected (if not liked) by white Americans. Googling around for a bit I could not seem to find reliable statistics on whether or not people supported him but it ranges anywhere from 45% to 70% of the population. Can you recommend a book on the topic or something? I’m actually curious now.
    - generj 4y ago
      We are definitely off topic but since we are just leaving the MLK Jr. Holiday so hopefully the forum will indulge our sidebar. I wish I had a good book for you. My friend probably has six, I may ask him for a recommendation later. There’s a growing movement that says nonviolent actors received too much of the credit for the Civil rights movement, with MLK Jr in particular getting outsized accolades. Giving him credit was very convenient as he was dead and could not directly condemn the current conditions. 40-60% is probably about right for general support for civil rights, but with major caveats. For example, 58% of people supported the Civil Rights Act but only 19% wanted it to be vigorously enforced [0]. So you see for example a backlash to school bussing, NYC schools not being integrated for decades after civil rights, etc. Northerners mostly supported civil rights so long as it only impacted those backwards Southerners but were not ready for real integration. Support for interracial marriage did not reach above 50% approval until in the 1990s despite being allowed nationally by the Supreme Court in 1967. That’s a good example IMO of how civil rights bypassed the slow change in opinion via the courts. The Harris poll [1] near his death had him at around 75% disapproval and only 50% black approval. Critically this was after he pivoted from a civil rights focus towards anti-war and anti-poverty (both in his mind an obvious extension of the civil rights movement - others did not agree). [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/01/16/50-years-ago-mixed-views-about-civil-rights-but-support-for-selma-demonstrators/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/01/16/50-years-ag... [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-king-had-75-percent-disapproval-rating-year-he-died-180968664/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-kin...

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

Pure speculation? Folks are smarter than that as a rule. They'd comment on how that would be cool, then how it would affect kids, then whether kids really care and so on. You know, real thoughtful conversation and not just name-calling.

subjectsigma 4y ago
Yes, what I posted was definitely just thoughtless name-calling, not in any way a reflection of my experience or any known facts. I’m so glad we have knowledgeable experts like you, high-brow academic nobles whose comments are here to educate with quality science. Thank you for constructing a quality argument and citing your sources. You’re really raising the bar for discussion on HN! Keep it up!

csa 4y ago

At many/most bars in these areas, the answer will be “yes”, and they may show you the background image on their phone with bare breasted women or will regale with stories about the “good ol’ days” with calendars at work that had bare-breasted women. If you go to churches in these areas, the stated preference may be “no”, but many of them will be lying. If you need evidence of these preferences, go to the infield of any NASCAR race. Or go to any spring break location where young people from these areas go to spring break. You will see more bare-breasted women than you can count at both of these places.

OkayPhysicist 4y ago

Coastal counties make up 40% of the US population. The myth of the "Average American" being some hick in Wyoming is just patently false.

tmtvl 4y ago
Isn't the population sparseness in the United States heartland also the raison d'être for the Electoral College? Anyway, speculating about what the majority of people think seems quite pointless as they themselves don't know.