4 ms·

I'd say, having experiences at bad workplaces can still be valuable. This isn't to say one should seek out toxic colleagues and horrible working conditions, but

I'd say, having experiences at bad workplaces can still be valuable. This isn't to say one should seek out toxic colleagues and horrible working conditions, but knowing what you do not want is valuable too. And having bad workplaces early on is cheaper than having bad workplaces later in life. All in all, I'm trying to emphasize that a job in the field you want will almost always be beneficial when you're starting out.

roughly 4y ago
Broadly I agree with this, with the caveat that, especially as a junior developer/new grad, it can be both really difficult to spot that a workspace is toxic and really damaging to work in one over time. As far into my career as I am at this point, I've both a finely honed radar and zero tolerance for toxic bullshit, but as a new developer, it's a whole lot harder to have both the self-confidence and self-awareness to recognize that the reception you're getting isn't because you're an unqualified idiot, it's because Sr. Developer Jim's dad was an asshole and Engineering Manager Bob doesn't know how to or have the confidence in his role to rein in his Sr. Developer from berating the new grad for things that new grads do until emotionally balanced mentors teach them not to. I have good friends who've spent a lot of time in therapy undoing what toxic workplaces did during vulnerable years.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Being a junior without prior experience at a shitty company is a enormous risk. Being a senior means you can judge the shittyness, as junior this first experience will influence you for a good part of your future career, be it for the better or worse. My advice, look for some decent, experienced people in any job you have, but even more so in your first. Build a trustfull relationship with at least one of those folks and get as much advice, mentoring and context out of them as possible.
  - roughly 4y ago
    Yes, absolutely agree - I was considering updating with something similar. Finding a mentor, either within or outside the company, who’s opinions you trust and who can say “no, you’re not reading that situation wrong, Jim’s behaving badly” or “yes, your instincts are correct, this is the right way to do this,” or even “yes, Bob’s incompetent, but in this case, he’s right, because of this” is absolutely invaluable. It’s invaluable for anyone, but especially in that situation, it can make the difference between a learning opportunity and a trauma.
    - whstl 4y ago
      Agree. I would add that someone like this is important even for more senior, and even leadership positions, all the way up to C-Level. Whoever had a brush with a report or a peer that behaved badly knows that sometimes you need a second opinion not to be biased and to not take it personally. The one thing you don't want to do is to talk about these things with a report or with a co-worker, and I've seen too many managers making this mistake with me.
- msrenee 4y ago
  Yep. Wouldn't trade the self-confidence and lack of tolerance for BS I developed from working for a psycho for much. I just wish it hadn't taken therapy and antidepressants to get back to a place where I could be comfortable in myself and my abilities again. I could be getting paid more, but my current workplace has only a couple completely worthless human beings. The supervisor knows who they are and what they're like and steps right in if there's a conflict. That's worth at least an extra $20k/year in my book. For my part, I try to advocate for less-established coworkers who are getting hit with the same crap I did from those individuals. Keeps the couple jerks from running off potential talent who will make my job more pleasant in the long run.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
whstl 4y ago
One particular thing I've noticed in my neck of the woods is younger Junior devs only staying at junior level jobs for a set period. They stay only one year, almost to the day, despite good performance and good fit. That happened to a report of mine once, obviously with a previous mutual agreement, but some recruiters mentioned that trend to me as well. I think having a set date to leave is healthy, especially at this point in someone's career. You just do your job and you're rewarded with money and experience. You shield yourself from toxicity in a way, since don't want to depend on the job for having "best friends". Also you don't play office politics since you know it's ephemeral.
- shagie 4y ago
  A tangent to this is "management is now hesitant to hire people who have shown an established history of employment." When you hire a new grad, and then spend a year getting them all up to speed with the process and CI system and code reviews and familiarization with the code base and they're just now starting to take on the responsibility for some of the code... and they leave a year and a day after you hired them. And so then you hire another new grad... and {repeat}... and they leave a year and a day after you hired them. At this point, management is a bit frustrated. They give it one more go... and they leave a year and a day after you hired them. And now, when that position is opened up again, it is no longer an entry level position but rather a mid level. We forgo the extensive onboarding and gradual ramp up for a new grad and instead have a mid who should be able to understand the nature of a CI system, issue tracking, and so on and be able to start being a positive contributor in a month or two and so if they also leave a year and a day later, we've had several months of them being a positive contribution on the team. ... and now its just that much harder for a new grad to find a job.
  - beams_of_light 4y ago
    This is an HR problem. If they’re happy with their job, it’s not possible for them to get a raise with the current company that likely comes anywhere close to what they can get jumping ship. If HR would be willing to say “Hey, we recognize that this person is doing good work and want to keep them, but also recognize they can realize a 50%+ increase elsewhere. Let’s open the checkbook.” Instead, they’ll say that the most they can give them is somewhere around 10%, maybe the manager can fight for 15%. In the end, they’re going to take the 50% increase, even if your corporate culture and everything else is great.
red-iron-pine 4y ago
Definitely agree with this. To learn good leadership you have to see bad leadership; to create a genuinely good environment you have to see what happens to make a bad one, etc. etc.

roughly 4y ago

Broadly I agree with this, with the caveat that, especially as a junior developer/new grad, it can be both really difficult to spot that a workspace is toxic and really damaging to work in one over time. As far into my career as I am at this point, I've both a finely honed radar and zero tolerance for toxic bullshit, but as a new developer, it's a whole lot harder to have both the self-confidence and self-awareness to recognize that the reception you're getting isn't because you're an unqualified idiot, it's because Sr. Developer Jim's dad was an asshole and Engineering Manager Bob doesn't know how to or have the confidence in his role to rein in his Sr. Developer from berating the new grad for things that new grads do until emotionally balanced mentors teach them not to. I have good friends who've spent a lot of time in therapy undoing what toxic workplaces did during vulnerable years.

hef19898 4y ago
Being a junior without prior experience at a shitty company is a enormous risk. Being a senior means you can judge the shittyness, as junior this first experience will influence you for a good part of your future career, be it for the better or worse. My advice, look for some decent, experienced people in any job you have, but even more so in your first. Build a trustfull relationship with at least one of those folks and get as much advice, mentoring and context out of them as possible.
- roughly 4y ago
  Yes, absolutely agree - I was considering updating with something similar. Finding a mentor, either within or outside the company, who’s opinions you trust and who can say “no, you’re not reading that situation wrong, Jim’s behaving badly” or “yes, your instincts are correct, this is the right way to do this,” or even “yes, Bob’s incompetent, but in this case, he’s right, because of this” is absolutely invaluable. It’s invaluable for anyone, but especially in that situation, it can make the difference between a learning opportunity and a trauma.
  - whstl 4y ago
    Agree. I would add that someone like this is important even for more senior, and even leadership positions, all the way up to C-Level. Whoever had a brush with a report or a peer that behaved badly knows that sometimes you need a second opinion not to be biased and to not take it personally. The one thing you don't want to do is to talk about these things with a report or with a co-worker, and I've seen too many managers making this mistake with me.
msrenee 4y ago
Yep. Wouldn't trade the self-confidence and lack of tolerance for BS I developed from working for a psycho for much. I just wish it hadn't taken therapy and antidepressants to get back to a place where I could be comfortable in myself and my abilities again. I could be getting paid more, but my current workplace has only a couple completely worthless human beings. The supervisor knows who they are and what they're like and steps right in if there's a conflict. That's worth at least an extra $20k/year in my book. For my part, I try to advocate for less-established coworkers who are getting hit with the same crap I did from those individuals. Keeps the couple jerks from running off potential talent who will make my job more pleasant in the long run.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

whstl 4y ago

One particular thing I've noticed in my neck of the woods is younger Junior devs only staying at junior level jobs for a set period. They stay only one year, almost to the day, despite good performance and good fit. That happened to a report of mine once, obviously with a previous mutual agreement, but some recruiters mentioned that trend to me as well. I think having a set date to leave is healthy, especially at this point in someone's career. You just do your job and you're rewarded with money and experience. You shield yourself from toxicity in a way, since don't want to depend on the job for having "best friends". Also you don't play office politics since you know it's ephemeral.

shagie 4y ago
A tangent to this is "management is now hesitant to hire people who have shown an established history of employment." When you hire a new grad, and then spend a year getting them all up to speed with the process and CI system and code reviews and familiarization with the code base and they're just now starting to take on the responsibility for some of the code... and they leave a year and a day after you hired them. And so then you hire another new grad... and {repeat}... and they leave a year and a day after you hired them. At this point, management is a bit frustrated. They give it one more go... and they leave a year and a day after you hired them. And now, when that position is opened up again, it is no longer an entry level position but rather a mid level. We forgo the extensive onboarding and gradual ramp up for a new grad and instead have a mid who should be able to understand the nature of a CI system, issue tracking, and so on and be able to start being a positive contributor in a month or two and so if they also leave a year and a day later, we've had several months of them being a positive contribution on the team. ... and now its just that much harder for a new grad to find a job.
- beams_of_light 4y ago
  This is an HR problem. If they’re happy with their job, it’s not possible for them to get a raise with the current company that likely comes anywhere close to what they can get jumping ship. If HR would be willing to say “Hey, we recognize that this person is doing good work and want to keep them, but also recognize they can realize a 50%+ increase elsewhere. Let’s open the checkbook.” Instead, they’ll say that the most they can give them is somewhere around 10%, maybe the manager can fight for 15%. In the end, they’re going to take the 50% increase, even if your corporate culture and everything else is great.

red-iron-pine 4y ago

Definitely agree with this. To learn good leadership you have to see bad leadership; to create a genuinely good environment you have to see what happens to make a bad one, etc. etc.