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This is the harmful mantra that shifts all responsibility down at the individual level, overlooking any structural deficiencies at large. Multiply this behaviou

This is the harmful mantra that shifts all responsibility down at the individual level, overlooking any structural deficiencies at large. Multiply this behaviour over a large population of individuals, and you have atomised wheel-spinning hamsters without any abstract sense of the world they inhabit. Everyone tries to spin the wheel a bit faster, exacerbating the systemic issue even further.

twh270 4y ago
No, this is about acceptance of the 'hand' you have and having an understanding of what you can control and influence. Which is pretty damn empowering, compared to blaming structural or systemic problems for your situation.
- beecafe 4y ago
  The point is to change the structure and try to address systemic problems, rather than putting on your blinders.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    Most of us don't have any meaningful avenues to do so (although there's plenty of simulacrums if one just wants to feel like they're "doing something"). But, more importantly, it's generally not something that can be done on a timeframe that would actually benefit you and solve your immediate problem. Yes, we should be fixing systemic problems at proper scale, but meanwhile we still have to function within the current messy state of affairs.
- bluetomcat 4y ago
  Individual agency is important either way, but people should be aware of its limitations when approaching wide societal problems. Collective consensus has the ability to change the rules of the game once they have become an impediment to the net "well-being" of society. And this can only be assessed when people try to jump out of their subjective experience, reasoning about the world as an outside observer.
pksebben 4y ago
I find myself to agree with both of you, depending on scope. When it comes to me and my personal life, I do my best to find what I could be doing differently. I try to find the blame for my problems in myself, because it's the place I can actually make changes. When thinking about policy or culture, it's the opposite; I seek systemic solutions and look to where there are systemic inefficiencies. The reason for this fairly bipolar thinking is inertia; I'm only going to be around for so long and I don't have time to wait for the cruise liner of human society to change heading - so I get my run in on the deck. Then I go yell at the captain for getting us lost at sea.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
This is the only advice that is really applicable and actionable at the individual level. If someone is "poor and fat", telling them to advocate for a less car dependent society isn't helpful. Practical advice and understanding societal root causes are really two different activities, and people tend to seamlessly slip between them. Cruel optimism is personal advice. Lazy pessimism is academic analysis.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  It really depends on the exact circumstances imo, and so generic advice like "if you're poor and fat just go for runs" is supremely unhelpful because generic advice is often times simultaneously not actionable and it blames the person for not being able to action on it! For example, if you're fat, poor, and wheelchair-bound, "just run" is a slap in the face and, potentially, advocating for a less car dependent society is actually the best thing they can do so that they can safely take accessible public transport to the one nutritionist their insurance covers!
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I agree that it depends on the circumstances. I would argue that generic advice is generally applicable. It can't cover every single corner case specifically designed to evade it. By that same metric, advocating a person wait for a less car dependent society with accessible public transport is terrible advice for the average fat and poor person. No hypothetical advice can pass a "No True Scotsman" test.
    - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
      I'm not suggesting any solutions for all poor fat people. In fact what I'm advocating against is the idea that generic advice for all people of a very broad category is not as generally applicable and, in fact, runs into the rhetoric I said earlier that it both provides inapplicable and blaming advice. There are a great many, many problems with generic advice for a very broad set of society of millions of people. If no hypothetical advice can pass a "No True Sctosman" test, stop giving hypothetical advice to the simplest example of a complex problem.
etempleton 4y ago
It is not meant to be a government or societal philosophy. It is a personal philosophy. It is exerting control over your life where you can and trying not to let what you can’t control bother you or beat you down.

twh270 4y ago

No, this is about acceptance of the 'hand' you have and having an understanding of what you can control and influence. Which is pretty damn empowering, compared to blaming structural or systemic problems for your situation.

beecafe 4y ago
The point is to change the structure and try to address systemic problems, rather than putting on your blinders.
- int_19h 4y ago
  Most of us don't have any meaningful avenues to do so (although there's plenty of simulacrums if one just wants to feel like they're "doing something"). But, more importantly, it's generally not something that can be done on a timeframe that would actually benefit you and solve your immediate problem. Yes, we should be fixing systemic problems at proper scale, but meanwhile we still have to function within the current messy state of affairs.
bluetomcat 4y ago
Individual agency is important either way, but people should be aware of its limitations when approaching wide societal problems. Collective consensus has the ability to change the rules of the game once they have become an impediment to the net "well-being" of society. And this can only be assessed when people try to jump out of their subjective experience, reasoning about the world as an outside observer.

pksebben 4y ago

I find myself to agree with both of you, depending on scope. When it comes to me and my personal life, I do my best to find what I could be doing differently. I try to find the blame for my problems in myself, because it's the place I can actually make changes. When thinking about policy or culture, it's the opposite; I seek systemic solutions and look to where there are systemic inefficiencies. The reason for this fairly bipolar thinking is inertia; I'm only going to be around for so long and I don't have time to wait for the cruise liner of human society to change heading - so I get my run in on the deck. Then I go yell at the captain for getting us lost at sea.

s1artibartfast 4y ago

This is the only advice that is really applicable and actionable at the individual level. If someone is "poor and fat", telling them to advocate for a less car dependent society isn't helpful. Practical advice and understanding societal root causes are really two different activities, and people tend to seamlessly slip between them. Cruel optimism is personal advice. Lazy pessimism is academic analysis.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago
It really depends on the exact circumstances imo, and so generic advice like "if you're poor and fat just go for runs" is supremely unhelpful because generic advice is often times simultaneously not actionable and it blames the person for not being able to action on it! For example, if you're fat, poor, and wheelchair-bound, "just run" is a slap in the face and, potentially, advocating for a less car dependent society is actually the best thing they can do so that they can safely take accessible public transport to the one nutritionist their insurance covers!
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  I agree that it depends on the circumstances. I would argue that generic advice is generally applicable. It can't cover every single corner case specifically designed to evade it. By that same metric, advocating a person wait for a less car dependent society with accessible public transport is terrible advice for the average fat and poor person. No hypothetical advice can pass a "No True Scotsman" test.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    I'm not suggesting any solutions for all poor fat people. In fact what I'm advocating against is the idea that generic advice for all people of a very broad category is not as generally applicable and, in fact, runs into the rhetoric I said earlier that it both provides inapplicable and blaming advice. There are a great many, many problems with generic advice for a very broad set of society of millions of people. If no hypothetical advice can pass a "No True Sctosman" test, stop giving hypothetical advice to the simplest example of a complex problem.

etempleton 4y ago

It is not meant to be a government or societal philosophy. It is a personal philosophy. It is exerting control over your life where you can and trying not to let what you can’t control bother you or beat you down.