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It's not slavery though, since nobody is forced to take the job. This clearly was something Kenyan workers were happy to have as an option, otherwise they would

It's not slavery though, since nobody is forced to take the job. This clearly was something Kenyan workers were happy to have as an option, otherwise they wouldn't have taken the job. If everyone did what OpenAI did and moved work like this to Kenya, salary would quickly go up. If few companies moved their work there, comp will stay low. It seems the low price is one of the main attractors right now. So shaming companies into paying more, likely will just move the work elsewhere and leave workers there with $0/hr.

key_stroker 4y ago
You're right nobody is forcing them, they simply lack an alternative, some money is better than none, no matter what it costs, right?
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  It sounds like you're suggesting some different approach for how to calculate a wage offer. Can you elaborate?
- gautamdivgi 4y ago
  Why is that an OpenAI problem? It’s something the Kenyan government needs to solve. I fail to see why every company needs to subscribe to an SJW mindset. They paid decent wages by Kenyan standards it seems. They did not force, exploit or abuse the workers.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  Poverty and inequality are terrible. OpenAI should be ashamed that they just made it marginally better for some folks in Kenya instead of solving this massive problem in its entirety that has nothing to do with their company. /s
- chrischen 4y ago
  Yes, some money is better than none. That is exactly why it is better. They are literally doing something whereas you are probably doing nothing (or much less than what they are doing).
- lkbm 4y ago
  OpenAI offered them work at $2/hour. You and I offered them no work for no pay. The workers have made clear they prefer OpenAI's offer. We could tell the workers that we know what's best for them. Sitting here in my rich country with my six-figured job, I'm supposed to tell the workers they're wrong, they should have taken my offer instead? It's a terrible incentive that helping people a little bit will get you criticism while helping not at all earns you no criticism. In fact, as non-helpers we get to sit and sanctimoniously criticize the people actually doing something.
- gowld 4y ago
  https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth... By your logic, you are more evil because you pay Kenyans $0.
csomar 4y ago
That’s some BS that we were fed about competitiveness. I used to buy that BS at some point. But these companies (and the people having them) have a choice and they do have enough money. One of the companies I’m following now is Oxide (https://oxide.computer/careers https://oxide.computer/careers). They pay everyone the same salary ($200k) regardless of position. It’s a bit extreme but am following them precisely for that. It’d be interesting to see how Oxide fares down the road. It’s funny that some years ago that software developers were complaining that they were getting paid less because of politics and because people who talked controlled the businesses and the money. It’s funny because now that the table turned, most of them are doing the same thing.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Janitors at that company make $200k?
  - ajmurmann 4y ago
    Probably everyone with roles that aren't part of the core business is outsourced. Am argument could be made that outsourcing is actually worth for the workers than earning less than highly skilled labor, but being a FTE and maybe get opportunity to grow.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  Nothing funny about it, it’s called leverage, and realistically it’s not always a bad thing. The note up above about it not being slavery because it’s voluntary is really important. If someone is entering into an agreement willingly, that’s pretty good evidence at least (if not proof) that they expect or perceive it to be a mutually beneficial transaction. This can be the case regardless of some 3rd party’s (and especially a rich westerner’s) gut reaction that the wage is crazy low.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    > If someone is entering into an agreement willingly, that’s pretty good evidence at least (if not proof) that they expect or perceive it to be a mutually beneficial transaction. Respectfully, the existance, and the need, for minimum wage puts lie to this assumption. People need money to survive, and will take whatever job they can when they don't have one, even if it not for enough pay. I'm not claiming this is the case here, but that this argument is badly flawed.
guerrilla 4y ago
> It's not slavery though, since nobody is forced to take the job. Yes they are, that's what borders are: rent-seeking in the labor market.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  I'm 100% in favor of open borders. However, what can OpenAI do about that?
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Not exploit closed borders. Everybody here is acting like they had no choice but to employ Kenyan workers specifically.
    - ajmurmann 4y ago
      If there Kenyan workers would prefer not to have this job, they would quit. This is clearly a win/win for OpenAI and the Kenyan workers.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    I was just responding to the specific claim, but I think what they could do is pay as if they weren't leveraging borders to decrease wages. I'd rather solve the problem at the root than require such exceptionalism from them though, as that doesn't really seem scalable.

key_stroker 4y ago

You're right nobody is forcing them, they simply lack an alternative, some money is better than none, no matter what it costs, right?

CoastalCoder 4y ago
It sounds like you're suggesting some different approach for how to calculate a wage offer. Can you elaborate?
gautamdivgi 4y ago
Why is that an OpenAI problem? It’s something the Kenyan government needs to solve. I fail to see why every company needs to subscribe to an SJW mindset. They paid decent wages by Kenyan standards it seems. They did not force, exploit or abuse the workers.
ajmurmann 4y ago
Poverty and inequality are terrible. OpenAI should be ashamed that they just made it marginally better for some folks in Kenya instead of solving this massive problem in its entirety that has nothing to do with their company. /s
chrischen 4y ago
Yes, some money is better than none. That is exactly why it is better. They are literally doing something whereas you are probably doing nothing (or much less than what they are doing).
lkbm 4y ago
OpenAI offered them work at $2/hour. You and I offered them no work for no pay. The workers have made clear they prefer OpenAI's offer. We could tell the workers that we know what's best for them. Sitting here in my rich country with my six-figured job, I'm supposed to tell the workers they're wrong, they should have taken my offer instead? It's a terrible incentive that helping people a little bit will get you criticism while helping not at all earns you no criticism. In fact, as non-helpers we get to sit and sanctimoniously criticize the people actually doing something.
gowld 4y ago
https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth... By your logic, you are more evil because you pay Kenyans $0.

csomar 4y ago

That’s some BS that we were fed about competitiveness. I used to buy that BS at some point. But these companies (and the people having them) have a choice and they do have enough money. One of the companies I’m following now is Oxide (https://oxide.computer/careers https://oxide.computer/careers). They pay everyone the same salary ($200k) regardless of position. It’s a bit extreme but am following them precisely for that. It’d be interesting to see how Oxide fares down the road. It’s funny that some years ago that software developers were complaining that they were getting paid less because of politics and because people who talked controlled the businesses and the money. It’s funny because now that the table turned, most of them are doing the same thing.

themitigating 4y ago
Janitors at that company make $200k?
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  Probably everyone with roles that aren't part of the core business is outsourced. Am argument could be made that outsourcing is actually worth for the workers than earning less than highly skilled labor, but being a FTE and maybe get opportunity to grow.
ethanbond 4y ago
Nothing funny about it, it’s called leverage, and realistically it’s not always a bad thing. The note up above about it not being slavery because it’s voluntary is really important. If someone is entering into an agreement willingly, that’s pretty good evidence at least (if not proof) that they expect or perceive it to be a mutually beneficial transaction. This can be the case regardless of some 3rd party’s (and especially a rich westerner’s) gut reaction that the wage is crazy low.
- falcolas 4y ago
  > If someone is entering into an agreement willingly, that’s pretty good evidence at least (if not proof) that they expect or perceive it to be a mutually beneficial transaction. Respectfully, the existance, and the need, for minimum wage puts lie to this assumption. People need money to survive, and will take whatever job they can when they don't have one, even if it not for enough pay. I'm not claiming this is the case here, but that this argument is badly flawed.

guerrilla 4y ago

> It's not slavery though, since nobody is forced to take the job. Yes they are, that's what borders are: rent-seeking in the labor market.

ajmurmann 4y ago
I'm 100% in favor of open borders. However, what can OpenAI do about that?
- falcolas 4y ago
  Not exploit closed borders. Everybody here is acting like they had no choice but to employ Kenyan workers specifically.
  - ajmurmann 4y ago
    If there Kenyan workers would prefer not to have this job, they would quit. This is clearly a win/win for OpenAI and the Kenyan workers.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  I was just responding to the specific claim, but I think what they could do is pay as if they weren't leveraging borders to decrease wages. I'd rather solve the problem at the root than require such exceptionalism from them though, as that doesn't really seem scalable.