5 ms·

Canadian house listing will only sell to buyers of a certain ethnic background

28 points by amichail 4y ago

pestatije 4y ago
$875,000 and be of Ukranian descent
- collyw 4y ago
  It was labelled the most corrupt country in Europe before the current situation. No doubt plenty of money laundering went on there. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-...
  - Mikeb85 4y ago
    Yes, that's what lead to Zelenskiy being elected. Lots happened in the 8 years since this article was written...
    - kderbyma 4y ago
      ....yeah....and the corruption disappeared LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! 'Laides and gentlemen...we need more money'
  - derstander 4y ago
    I always see this line trotted out and I always wondered how corruption is quantified. And luckily your link points to the source in a snippet in an otherwise human interest story about a mismanaged Ukrainian hospital: Transparency International’s “Corruption Perceptions Index”. That said, I don’t think either the link or TI’s index support the claim that Ukraine was “the most corrupt country in Europe before the current situation”. First, regarding the corruption index — “each country’s score is a combination of at least 3 data sources data sources drawn from 13 different corruption surveys and assessments”. And “the sources and surveys which make up the CPI are based on carefully designed and calibrated questionnaires, answered by experts and businesspeople”. So fundamentally perceptions (as per the title) instead of hard data — and probably different sources across different countries calibrated in some way (it might be sourced somewhere but one only has so much time). Second, and I think more damning to the statement about Ukraine being the most corrupt in Europe prior to the current events by the referenced corruption index itself. Russia and Ukraine trade places on which is perceived to be more corrupt up until 2017 when Ukraine is clearly less corrupt than Russia. I spent my lunch graphing the data and only feel like it was mostly a waste of my time. My bottom line based on the data: Russia and Ukraine were roughly the same amount of corrupt until 2017 when Russia distances itself as clearly more corrupt. The rankings themselves are based on expert perceptions rather than hard data. The statement about Ukraine being the most corrupt state in Europe before the current events is only true if you consider Ukraine in Europe and Russia not. Which one could certainly do but considered their shared past during the USSR seems a fundamentally flawed way of treating them.
    - unity1001 4y ago
      > how corruption is quantified Like it has always been since Randians became a thing: In 2014 Ukraine got a US backed government which went full 'Chicago Boys' on the country. You know, privatizing everything, removing all social services and protections, the 'freest market' thing. Of course, in such a 'most free' environment, those who oversaw that privatization have become ! extremely ! rich. > The rankings themselves are based on expert perceptions No, they aren't. Most of them come from the same Randian sources in Anglosphere, which consistently rank countries that are the most corrupt as 'non-corrupt'. Like how the US ends up lower on corruption indexes despite something called lobbying existing...
      - derstander 4y ago
        >> The rankings themselves are based on expert perceptions > No, they aren't. I literally pulled those quotes from the Transparency Institute’s page on the corruption index… So yes, they are. But I got hung up on your wording. Check out the Transparency Institute’s rankings. Notwithstanding what I said about the softness of the ranking systems, the Nordic countries rank fairly well as being uncorrupt so it is not immediately obvious that the Randian / Libertarian model is being held up as more virtuous.
        unity1001 4y ago
        > I literally pulled those quotes from the Transparency Institute’s page on the corruption index Such organizations literally calculate those 'indexes' on ! perceptions !. They ask the people if they think their country is 'corrupt', and people respond yes or no. https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 Leaving aside just by selecting the 'right' sample you can make anything happen, there is a bigger elephant in the room: Cultural differences. In countries like France, Russia and Eastern Europe, complaining is a national sport. People socialize by complaining about everything, foremost, the government, the bureaucracy and so on. So if you ask even a neutral observer, he or she will literally spam many complaints and will strongly state that everything is corrupt. Conversely, the cultural paradigm in other countries is way too different - in the US, for example, the existence of lobbying and the immense, mind-boggling money in politics are not seen in the same way. They are seen as 'problems', but they are not the game-breakers that should launch the US to the top of the index. They are merely labeled as 'flaws'. > the Nordic countries rank fairly well as being uncorrupt Its true that these countries do better in objective criteria related to what we describe as corruption. But their presence in any index does not validate that index. To start with, neither the Nordic citizens see the immense revolving doors and cooperation in between their defense industries, their governments and how their defense industries do business with repressive regimes and all that goes around it as 'corruption'. Many are not even aware of its existence. And the elephant is in the room for them too - Nordic countries have a cultural propensity to stoicism, and they also say that they are happy in polls for happiness indexes, and they rank high in them. And yet their suicide rates are far higher than the countries in which people say they are unhappy, but live longer and healthier (like Spain etc). So these indexes are just PR and propaganda vessels that pitch the world view of their establishment and their society's culture.
Mikeb85 4y ago
No one complains about Brampton yet a Ukrainian community is an issue? Edit - there's also the issue of Chinatowns, Jewish enclaves and others, yet this article wants to attack Ukrainians, why?
- Karsteski 4y ago
  People do complain about Brampton as well. Just because it's not in this article doesn't mean people don't bring it up lol... I've definitely seen listings that won't rent to muslim/hindu people etc., for example
  - Mikeb85 4y ago
    I mean in the sense that no one questions the idea that it should be allowed to be an ethnic enclave. Meanwhile here's an entire article saying Ukrainians shouldn't be allowed to have a community.
    - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
      Do you also speak up in support of white Christian nationalists having their own enclaves? Not in your mind, but on public message boards or even face-to-face?
      - DontchaKnowit 4y ago
        [flagged]
      - Mikeb85 4y ago
        So is this more Russian propaganda denying that Ukrainians are a distinct people or a brain-dead comment about how all white people are the same? Because while the British were conquering half the world and running the transatlantic slave trade, Ukrainian people were simply trying to avoid being conquered by various powers and subjected to genocide. The Mongols, Ottomans, Tatars, Polish-Lithuanians, Austro-Hungarians, Germans and Russians all conquered Ukraine at times, the Russians subjected them to a genocide and are currently attempting another... Ukraine's last 700 years of history are basically just attempting to stay alive and independent. But sure, go on about how they're the same as WASPs and have white privilege or some other nonsense. Anyhow, Ukrainians have distinct language, culture, food and are mostly a religion that's a tiny minority in North America, so go on about why they can't decide to have a small enclave when literally every other culture does. Why are Chinatowns and Jewish quarters OK but not a single Ukrainian country club?
psychphysic 4y ago
There's been similar cases around the west. Typically it's allowed but estate agent gets enough flack the commission isn't worth it and they drop the sale. Similarly, sellers jobs at risk etc. No chance in hell you'd get to buy a property in some parts of Stamford Hill if you weren't orthodox Jewish.[0] I don't see how you could make it so sellers are forced to sell to you, or need to give a reason to sell to someone else? [0] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/oct/16/uk-supreme-court-backs-housing-charitys-jewish-only-rule https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/oct/16/uk-supreme-c...
- mattnewton 4y ago
  I think it’s interesting to American audiences because we effectively do just that for housing[0], which was seen as necessary as part of trying to repair the countries history of slavery. My (limited) understanding is that it’s very well litigated - if you refuse to sell or rent to someone on the basis of a protected class they can sue you, and the government can even force the property owner to hire an independent manager so the suing tenant can rent but not come in direct contact with. This kind of language raises lots of red flags to my American ears. [0] https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/fair_housing_act_overview#_What_Is_Prohibited https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/f...?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- ars 4y ago
  That's a very misleading summary of the link you posted. The link describes a charity that wants to help out Orthodox Jews. I think everyone would agree that a charity has the right to choose who they want to help.
908B64B197 4y ago
How is that not completely illegal? Here in America this wouldn't fly.
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  Civic rights work quite differently in Canada, and this has long been the case.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  > Here in America this wouldn't fly. https://www.brookings.edu/research/even-as-metropolitan-areas-diversify-white-americans-still-live-in-mostly-white-neighborhoods/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/even-as-metropolitan-area... Say what?
  - mattnewton 4y ago
    Explicitly excluding a protected class in your listing in America will get you sued under the fair housing act. It may be true that people still live in less diverse enclaves but it is also true that this listing as worded would not fly in the US.
  - yucky 4y ago
    Your article does not dispute what they posted. Housing discrimination by race is illegal in the US and has been for decades. We don't forcefully integrate neighborhoods though, it's up to people where they want to live.
collyw 4y ago
Disgraceful.
Name_Chawps 4y ago
In Toronto this is standard for renting. I was ineligible for at least a quarter of cheap renting situations because I'm neither Indian nor female.
isitmadeofglass 4y ago
[dead]
poulsbohemian 4y ago
Where this gets a bit dicey is the "club membership" part... here in the US, you couldn't get away with no <racial group> allowed, but members of a particular church where the church owns the complex, for example, as well as "over-55" communities are places where the state has allowed this type of discrimination. There is also a loophole in US law for multi-tenant dwellings of 4 or fewer units where the owner/landlord lives on site - they have a lot of latitude, let's put it that way. Individual US states have different degrees of protections for various group. While this example in Canada is unlikely to fly here in the US, the fact that it is set up as more of a co-op with deed restrictions (I assume??) likely means there would need to be a lawsuit to completely overturn it. That said - as a real estate agent, I wouldn't touch it. No offense to any group that wants to have their own private community, but as a professional it sends a bad message if I start treating different members of society in discriminatory ways. Sometimes this means I have to work with people who's political / religious / social beliefs are very different from my own, as an example, but that's part of being a professional, IE: treat everyone right.

28 points by amichail 4y ago

pestatije 4y ago

$875,000 and be of Ukranian descent

collyw 4y ago
It was labelled the most corrupt country in Europe before the current situation. No doubt plenty of money laundering went on there. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-...
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  Yes, that's what lead to Zelenskiy being elected. Lots happened in the 8 years since this article was written...
  - kderbyma 4y ago
    ....yeah....and the corruption disappeared LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! 'Laides and gentlemen...we need more money'
- derstander 4y ago
  I always see this line trotted out and I always wondered how corruption is quantified. And luckily your link points to the source in a snippet in an otherwise human interest story about a mismanaged Ukrainian hospital: Transparency International’s “Corruption Perceptions Index”. That said, I don’t think either the link or TI’s index support the claim that Ukraine was “the most corrupt country in Europe before the current situation”. First, regarding the corruption index — “each country’s score is a combination of at least 3 data sources data sources drawn from 13 different corruption surveys and assessments”. And “the sources and surveys which make up the CPI are based on carefully designed and calibrated questionnaires, answered by experts and businesspeople”. So fundamentally perceptions (as per the title) instead of hard data — and probably different sources across different countries calibrated in some way (it might be sourced somewhere but one only has so much time). Second, and I think more damning to the statement about Ukraine being the most corrupt in Europe prior to the current events by the referenced corruption index itself. Russia and Ukraine trade places on which is perceived to be more corrupt up until 2017 when Ukraine is clearly less corrupt than Russia. I spent my lunch graphing the data and only feel like it was mostly a waste of my time. My bottom line based on the data: Russia and Ukraine were roughly the same amount of corrupt until 2017 when Russia distances itself as clearly more corrupt. The rankings themselves are based on expert perceptions rather than hard data. The statement about Ukraine being the most corrupt state in Europe before the current events is only true if you consider Ukraine in Europe and Russia not. Which one could certainly do but considered their shared past during the USSR seems a fundamentally flawed way of treating them.
  - unity1001 4y ago
    > how corruption is quantified Like it has always been since Randians became a thing: In 2014 Ukraine got a US backed government which went full 'Chicago Boys' on the country. You know, privatizing everything, removing all social services and protections, the 'freest market' thing. Of course, in such a 'most free' environment, those who oversaw that privatization have become ! extremely ! rich. > The rankings themselves are based on expert perceptions No, they aren't. Most of them come from the same Randian sources in Anglosphere, which consistently rank countries that are the most corrupt as 'non-corrupt'. Like how the US ends up lower on corruption indexes despite something called lobbying existing...
    - derstander 4y ago
      >> The rankings themselves are based on expert perceptions > No, they aren't. I literally pulled those quotes from the Transparency Institute’s page on the corruption index… So yes, they are. But I got hung up on your wording. Check out the Transparency Institute’s rankings. Notwithstanding what I said about the softness of the ranking systems, the Nordic countries rank fairly well as being uncorrupt so it is not immediately obvious that the Randian / Libertarian model is being held up as more virtuous.
      - unity1001 4y ago
        > I literally pulled those quotes from the Transparency Institute’s page on the corruption index Such organizations literally calculate those 'indexes' on ! perceptions !. They ask the people if they think their country is 'corrupt', and people respond yes or no. https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 Leaving aside just by selecting the 'right' sample you can make anything happen, there is a bigger elephant in the room: Cultural differences. In countries like France, Russia and Eastern Europe, complaining is a national sport. People socialize by complaining about everything, foremost, the government, the bureaucracy and so on. So if you ask even a neutral observer, he or she will literally spam many complaints and will strongly state that everything is corrupt. Conversely, the cultural paradigm in other countries is way too different - in the US, for example, the existence of lobbying and the immense, mind-boggling money in politics are not seen in the same way. They are seen as 'problems', but they are not the game-breakers that should launch the US to the top of the index. They are merely labeled as 'flaws'. > the Nordic countries rank fairly well as being uncorrupt Its true that these countries do better in objective criteria related to what we describe as corruption. But their presence in any index does not validate that index. To start with, neither the Nordic citizens see the immense revolving doors and cooperation in between their defense industries, their governments and how their defense industries do business with repressive regimes and all that goes around it as 'corruption'. Many are not even aware of its existence. And the elephant is in the room for them too - Nordic countries have a cultural propensity to stoicism, and they also say that they are happy in polls for happiness indexes, and they rank high in them. And yet their suicide rates are far higher than the countries in which people say they are unhappy, but live longer and healthier (like Spain etc). So these indexes are just PR and propaganda vessels that pitch the world view of their establishment and their society's culture.

Mikeb85 4y ago

No one complains about Brampton yet a Ukrainian community is an issue? Edit - there's also the issue of Chinatowns, Jewish enclaves and others, yet this article wants to attack Ukrainians, why?

Karsteski 4y ago
People do complain about Brampton as well. Just because it's not in this article doesn't mean people don't bring it up lol... I've definitely seen listings that won't rent to muslim/hindu people etc., for example
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  I mean in the sense that no one questions the idea that it should be allowed to be an ethnic enclave. Meanwhile here's an entire article saying Ukrainians shouldn't be allowed to have a community.
  - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
    Do you also speak up in support of white Christian nationalists having their own enclaves? Not in your mind, but on public message boards or even face-to-face?
    - DontchaKnowit 4y ago
      [flagged]
    - Mikeb85 4y ago
      So is this more Russian propaganda denying that Ukrainians are a distinct people or a brain-dead comment about how all white people are the same? Because while the British were conquering half the world and running the transatlantic slave trade, Ukrainian people were simply trying to avoid being conquered by various powers and subjected to genocide. The Mongols, Ottomans, Tatars, Polish-Lithuanians, Austro-Hungarians, Germans and Russians all conquered Ukraine at times, the Russians subjected them to a genocide and are currently attempting another... Ukraine's last 700 years of history are basically just attempting to stay alive and independent. But sure, go on about how they're the same as WASPs and have white privilege or some other nonsense. Anyhow, Ukrainians have distinct language, culture, food and are mostly a religion that's a tiny minority in North America, so go on about why they can't decide to have a small enclave when literally every other culture does. Why are Chinatowns and Jewish quarters OK but not a single Ukrainian country club?

psychphysic 4y ago

There's been similar cases around the west. Typically it's allowed but estate agent gets enough flack the commission isn't worth it and they drop the sale. Similarly, sellers jobs at risk etc. No chance in hell you'd get to buy a property in some parts of Stamford Hill if you weren't orthodox Jewish.[0] I don't see how you could make it so sellers are forced to sell to you, or need to give a reason to sell to someone else? [0] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/oct/16/uk-supreme-court-backs-housing-charitys-jewish-only-rule https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/oct/16/uk-supreme-c...

mattnewton 4y ago
I think it’s interesting to American audiences because we effectively do just that for housing[0], which was seen as necessary as part of trying to repair the countries history of slavery. My (limited) understanding is that it’s very well litigated - if you refuse to sell or rent to someone on the basis of a protected class they can sue you, and the government can even force the property owner to hire an independent manager so the suing tenant can rent but not come in direct contact with. This kind of language raises lots of red flags to my American ears. [0] https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/fair_housing_act_overview#_What_Is_Prohibited https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/f...?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ars 4y ago
That's a very misleading summary of the link you posted. The link describes a charity that wants to help out Orthodox Jews. I think everyone would agree that a charity has the right to choose who they want to help.

908B64B197 4y ago

How is that not completely illegal? Here in America this wouldn't fly.

Mountain_Skies 4y ago
Civic rights work quite differently in Canada, and this has long been the case.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Mikeb85 4y ago
> Here in America this wouldn't fly. https://www.brookings.edu/research/even-as-metropolitan-areas-diversify-white-americans-still-live-in-mostly-white-neighborhoods/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/even-as-metropolitan-area... Say what?
- mattnewton 4y ago
  Explicitly excluding a protected class in your listing in America will get you sued under the fair housing act. It may be true that people still live in less diverse enclaves but it is also true that this listing as worded would not fly in the US.
- yucky 4y ago
  Your article does not dispute what they posted. Housing discrimination by race is illegal in the US and has been for decades. We don't forcefully integrate neighborhoods though, it's up to people where they want to live.

collyw 4y ago

Disgraceful.

Name_Chawps 4y ago

In Toronto this is standard for renting. I was ineligible for at least a quarter of cheap renting situations because I'm neither Indian nor female.

isitmadeofglass 4y ago

[dead]

poulsbohemian 4y ago

Where this gets a bit dicey is the "club membership" part... here in the US, you couldn't get away with no <racial group> allowed, but members of a particular church where the church owns the complex, for example, as well as "over-55" communities are places where the state has allowed this type of discrimination. There is also a loophole in US law for multi-tenant dwellings of 4 or fewer units where the owner/landlord lives on site - they have a lot of latitude, let's put it that way. Individual US states have different degrees of protections for various group. While this example in Canada is unlikely to fly here in the US, the fact that it is set up as more of a co-op with deed restrictions (I assume??) likely means there would need to be a lawsuit to completely overturn it. That said - as a real estate agent, I wouldn't touch it. No offense to any group that wants to have their own private community, but as a professional it sends a bad message if I start treating different members of society in discriminatory ways. Sometimes this means I have to work with people who's political / religious / social beliefs are very different from my own, as an example, but that's part of being a professional, IE: treat everyone right.