5 ms·

It's a very interesting problem with psychology and the locus of control -- I think, ultimately, it depends on what works for you and solves your current psycho

It's a very interesting problem with psychology and the locus of control -- I think, ultimately, it depends on what works for you and solves your current psychological funk at the time. Some people think they control everything about their lives -- they do think that if they put in the time, effort, and energy, they can achieve anything. When they don't, they blame themselves endlessly. Sometimes, learning that it was something beyond your control (ie social forces were stacked against your particular endeavor) can be liberating and break the person out of personal blame an hopelessness and let them start again. On the other end of the spectrum is feeling like an endless victim. Sometimes, it's easy to blame everything and lament how everything is stacked against you. This provides psychological solace but can prevent you from moving forward because you're convinced you won't be able to. In these cases, some of the stories of 'self-made' optimism can help get you out of a spot of hopelessness into action. In this situation, though, what's medicine to one is poison to the other. I can think of times in my life where each view was helpful and warranted, even if they're hard to reconcile with each other. In this case, the 'truth' isn't really knowable because we can't objectively observe a system we're a part of. So, until we know, I guess it's whatever view gets you where you need to go.

eevilspock 4y ago
Sounds like you're saying we shouldn't bother trying. > In this situation, though, what's medicine to one is poison to the other. I can think of times in my life where each view was helpful and warranted, even if they're hard to reconcile with each other. Moral philosopher John Rawls's uses the concepts of original position and veil of ignorance for a thought experiment that is the only fair basis for making decisions about moral principles and how society should be structured. You can think of it as "What we'd all decide for the world if each of us did not know ahead of time which circumstance we'd be born into". https://open.library.okstate.edu/introphilosophy/chapter/john-rawls-and-the-veil-of-ignorance/ https://open.library.okstate.edu/introphilosophy/chapter/joh... > The Veil is meant to ensure that people’s concern for their personal benefit could translate into a set of arrangements that were fair for everyone, assuming that they had to stick to those choices once the Veil of Ignorance ‘lifts’, and they are given full information again. > One set of facts hidden from you behind the Veil are what we might call ‘demographic’ facts. You do not know your gender, race, wealth, or facts about your personal strengths and weaknesses, such as their intelligence or physical prowess. Rawls thought these facts are morally arbitrary: individuals do not earn or deserve these features, but simply have them by luck. As such, they do not deserve any benefits or harms that come from them. By removing knowledge of the natural inequalities that give people unfair advantages, it becomes irrational to choose principles that discriminate against any particular group. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/original-position/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/original-position/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position
mansoon 4y ago
Or you can be _both_ at the same time.
dasil003 4y ago
“Play the hand you’re dealt”
s1artibartfast 4y ago
One medicine that addresses both is a moving away from outcome based thinking and focus on performance. Ask "did I try my best", opposed to "did I get what I want"
- Viliam1234 4y ago
  On the other hand, if you think you did your best, but you keep failing... maybe you actually are wrong about something, and the world is giving you a honest feedback.
- victorstanciu 4y ago
  That's one of the main tenets of the Stoic philosophy. The hardest too.
- darkerside 4y ago
  It acknowledges the role of probability in your life. Sometimes things work out, and sometimes they don't. It's not that you have control, or you don't. You have some control, sometimes.
- aidenn0 4y ago
  Games of skill that also incorporate chance are somewhat helpful for developing this. Unfortunately a lot of those games are also closely associated with gambling (e.g. Bridge, Poker, Backgammon), which is perhaps something we don't want to encourage. I find deckbuilding games to be decent examples of this. At relatively close skill levels a bad draw can be the difference between winning and losing. It still takes a certain level of introspection to figure that out. Almost all elementary-school aged kids will conflate success with skill, even in games that are pure chance.
- zBard 4y ago
  Wouldn't the challenge be what does it mean that 'one tried their best' ? By using the word best there, it becomes yet another goal.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
wizzwizz4 4y ago
> I can think of times in my life where each view was helpful and warranted, even if they're hard to reconcile with each other. Almost anything is "within your power". The right sequence of muscle movements, performed by your body, could bring an end to most world conflict, cure near every disease we have, spoof any cryptographic protocol, reinvent basically every creative pursuit… However, as a regular human, with a brain not quite the size of a planet? Your actions are constrained by your knowledge, reasoning speed, reasoning ability (honed by past experience), mental state, emotional state, alertness, distractedness, loneliness, blood sugar level, blood protein level, percentage water… You can do more than what you can do at this moment. But you can't do more than you can do at this moment. But you can probably get yourself in a position where, next moment, you can do more than you could do this moment.
- antifa 4y ago
  Literally nothing in your "constrained by" list is stopping me from: > bring an end to most world conflict, cure near every disease we have, spoof any cryptographic protocol, reinvent basically every creative pursuit The main reason I'm not doing these things is because I'm not rich and I have to work a full time job to simply not be homeless.
dkarl 4y ago
People throughout known history have tried to solve what it means to have free will yet for our freedom to be circumscribed by the world we are part of. Denying freedom altogether is logically the simplest way out, and is often done on behalf of other people, but I don't think anybody chooses this way for themselves, not at a deep level. Psychologically, we need agency, and it's cruel to deny it to others. So we keep trying out new ways of framing it.
zBard 4y ago
A lot of religious/theological texts and frameworks talk about the balance between self forgiveness and self efficacy, and the need for perspective. "It was said of Reb Simcha Bunem, a 18th century Hasidic rebbe, that he carried two slips of paper, one in each pocket. One was inscribed with the saying from the Talmud: Bishvili nivra ha-olam, “for my sake the world was created.” On the other he wrote a phrase from our father Avraham in the Torah: V’anokhi afar v’efer,” “I am but dust and ashes.” He would take out and read each slip of paper as necessary for the moment."

eevilspock 4y ago

Sounds like you're saying we shouldn't bother trying. > In this situation, though, what's medicine to one is poison to the other. I can think of times in my life where each view was helpful and warranted, even if they're hard to reconcile with each other. Moral philosopher John Rawls's uses the concepts of original position and veil of ignorance for a thought experiment that is the only fair basis for making decisions about moral principles and how society should be structured. You can think of it as "What we'd all decide for the world if each of us did not know ahead of time which circumstance we'd be born into". https://open.library.okstate.edu/introphilosophy/chapter/john-rawls-and-the-veil-of-ignorance/ https://open.library.okstate.edu/introphilosophy/chapter/joh... > The Veil is meant to ensure that people’s concern for their personal benefit could translate into a set of arrangements that were fair for everyone, assuming that they had to stick to those choices once the Veil of Ignorance ‘lifts’, and they are given full information again. > One set of facts hidden from you behind the Veil are what we might call ‘demographic’ facts. You do not know your gender, race, wealth, or facts about your personal strengths and weaknesses, such as their intelligence or physical prowess. Rawls thought these facts are morally arbitrary: individuals do not earn or deserve these features, but simply have them by luck. As such, they do not deserve any benefits or harms that come from them. By removing knowledge of the natural inequalities that give people unfair advantages, it becomes irrational to choose principles that discriminate against any particular group. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/original-position/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/original-position/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position

mansoon 4y ago

Or you can be _both_ at the same time.

dasil003 4y ago

“Play the hand you’re dealt”

s1artibartfast 4y ago

One medicine that addresses both is a moving away from outcome based thinking and focus on performance. Ask "did I try my best", opposed to "did I get what I want"

Viliam1234 4y ago
On the other hand, if you think you did your best, but you keep failing... maybe you actually are wrong about something, and the world is giving you a honest feedback.
victorstanciu 4y ago
That's one of the main tenets of the Stoic philosophy. The hardest too.
darkerside 4y ago
It acknowledges the role of probability in your life. Sometimes things work out, and sometimes they don't. It's not that you have control, or you don't. You have some control, sometimes.
aidenn0 4y ago
Games of skill that also incorporate chance are somewhat helpful for developing this. Unfortunately a lot of those games are also closely associated with gambling (e.g. Bridge, Poker, Backgammon), which is perhaps something we don't want to encourage. I find deckbuilding games to be decent examples of this. At relatively close skill levels a bad draw can be the difference between winning and losing. It still takes a certain level of introspection to figure that out. Almost all elementary-school aged kids will conflate success with skill, even in games that are pure chance.
zBard 4y ago
Wouldn't the challenge be what does it mean that 'one tried their best' ? By using the word best there, it becomes yet another goal.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago

wizzwizz4 4y ago

> I can think of times in my life where each view was helpful and warranted, even if they're hard to reconcile with each other. Almost anything is "within your power". The right sequence of muscle movements, performed by your body, could bring an end to most world conflict, cure near every disease we have, spoof any cryptographic protocol, reinvent basically every creative pursuit… However, as a regular human, with a brain not quite the size of a planet? Your actions are constrained by your knowledge, reasoning speed, reasoning ability (honed by past experience), mental state, emotional state, alertness, distractedness, loneliness, blood sugar level, blood protein level, percentage water… You can do more than what you can do at this moment. But you can't do more than you can do at this moment. But you can probably get yourself in a position where, next moment, you can do more than you could do this moment.

antifa 4y ago
Literally nothing in your "constrained by" list is stopping me from: > bring an end to most world conflict, cure near every disease we have, spoof any cryptographic protocol, reinvent basically every creative pursuit The main reason I'm not doing these things is because I'm not rich and I have to work a full time job to simply not be homeless.

dkarl 4y ago

People throughout known history have tried to solve what it means to have free will yet for our freedom to be circumscribed by the world we are part of. Denying freedom altogether is logically the simplest way out, and is often done on behalf of other people, but I don't think anybody chooses this way for themselves, not at a deep level. Psychologically, we need agency, and it's cruel to deny it to others. So we keep trying out new ways of framing it.

zBard 4y ago

A lot of religious/theological texts and frameworks talk about the balance between self forgiveness and self efficacy, and the need for perspective. "It was said of Reb Simcha Bunem, a 18th century Hasidic rebbe, that he carried two slips of paper, one in each pocket. One was inscribed with the saying from the Talmud: Bishvili nivra ha-olam, “for my sake the world was created.” On the other he wrote a phrase from our father Avraham in the Torah: V’anokhi afar v’efer,” “I am but dust and ashes.” He would take out and read each slip of paper as necessary for the moment."