4 ms·

The romans had industrial scale water driven mills. But what you need to keep the running, when one emperor falls and another kingdom falters, is a empowered ci

The romans had industrial scale water driven mills. But what you need to keep the running, when one emperor falls and another kingdom falters, is a empowered citizen ship with venture capital, that is out of reach of the king, making innovation resilient. For me the industrial revolution started with the "familys" taking hold in the netherlands, england, germany - backing ventures, banking, becoming a powerhouse outside of the hierarchical power houses of olden times (king, serf) and not relying on militias, but lawyers, contracts and sometimes even rule of law (free cities). Its the end of hierarchical anarchy (and yes, rome in some ways was just as anarchic if you fell out of grace with the emperor)..

hnbad 4y ago
> hierarchical anarchy I have a vague idea what you're trying to describe but this phrase is completely self-contradictory. Anarchy is the absence of hierarchies. I think you're using "anarchy" in its pejorative sense, roughly meaning "chaos" or "law of the jungle" but using it like this in a discussion about social structures is confusing at best.
tremon 4y ago
What you're describing is more of a social revolution (upset of traditional societal structures). As always with history, the interesting question is whether the latter could have happened without the former.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  Its a pre-requisit, as a wittness i call into court venecia, were free enterprise lead to the cities bloom and the return of the feudal ruling structure among its trade partners (osman empire) lead to the decline of this "italian" silicon valley back into obscurity. https://www.britannica.com/place/Venice/The-commune https://www.britannica.com/place/Venice/The-commune Which by deduction means, that you need a trade supporting eco-system, without taxation on the moving of goods. Oceans prefered. Which means, that hermit kingdoms waylaying is the biggest innovation embargo. Basically, if you never get freedom of movement, and the old world drags enough at your coat, you get stuck forever and a day. The greeks colonialized the mediteranean and from this "outposts" the philosophers were able to cause a ruckus with the tribal-religous culture at home. Its the liberty of new beginnings, cheap defense against parasitic neighbours + highways that are the secret sauce. And it turns sour inevitably. Just look at the us becoming more like europe every day and the hopes projected on a new colony project (mars - without new surplus beginnings and highways though).
Bouncingsoul1 4y ago
Walter Scheidel argues Roman Collapse started the IR. https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691172187/escape-from-rome https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691172187/es...

hnbad 4y ago

> hierarchical anarchy I have a vague idea what you're trying to describe but this phrase is completely self-contradictory. Anarchy is the absence of hierarchies. I think you're using "anarchy" in its pejorative sense, roughly meaning "chaos" or "law of the jungle" but using it like this in a discussion about social structures is confusing at best.

tremon 4y ago

What you're describing is more of a social revolution (upset of traditional societal structures). As always with history, the interesting question is whether the latter could have happened without the former.

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
Its a pre-requisit, as a wittness i call into court venecia, were free enterprise lead to the cities bloom and the return of the feudal ruling structure among its trade partners (osman empire) lead to the decline of this "italian" silicon valley back into obscurity. https://www.britannica.com/place/Venice/The-commune https://www.britannica.com/place/Venice/The-commune Which by deduction means, that you need a trade supporting eco-system, without taxation on the moving of goods. Oceans prefered. Which means, that hermit kingdoms waylaying is the biggest innovation embargo. Basically, if you never get freedom of movement, and the old world drags enough at your coat, you get stuck forever and a day. The greeks colonialized the mediteranean and from this "outposts" the philosophers were able to cause a ruckus with the tribal-religous culture at home. Its the liberty of new beginnings, cheap defense against parasitic neighbours + highways that are the secret sauce. And it turns sour inevitably. Just look at the us becoming more like europe every day and the hopes projected on a new colony project (mars - without new surplus beginnings and highways though).

Bouncingsoul1 4y ago

Walter Scheidel argues Roman Collapse started the IR. https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691172187/escape-from-rome https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691172187/es...