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> Its origin on the internet was tightly bound to the "Honkler" meme, which was a neo-Nazi dogwhistle so thinly veiled that it was only denied by people with "1

> Its origin on the internet was tightly bound to the "Honkler" meme, which was a neo-Nazi dogwhistle so thinly veiled that it was only denied by people with "1488" in their usernames. There was essentially no real attempt to try and present it as something else. > Is spreading a neo-Nazi dogwhistle really a good push back against anti-racism? lol, I have to admit, assuming you are right, I wasn't aware of the origin of the term "clown world". I guess I shouldn't use that term, then. To be clear, I was trying to refer to the leftist ideology taken to an extreme, such that you try to be so anti-racist that you become racist yourself (against whites, for example). Or you try to be so anti-sexist, that you become sexist (against men). Or that you are no longer allowed to use any word whatsoever because every word offends some snowflake of an individual. And also, of course, other extreme examples of behavior where it's clear that you're no longer contributing to a solution, but rather creating a new problem. There are many such recent examples of this kind of non-sense.

akiselev 4y ago
I was skeptical about the GP's alleged etymology about clown world but... [1] > The alt-right sense emerged from The Honkler, a version of Pepe the Frog meme featuring a red clown nose and rainbow wig, characterized as honking a bicycle horn whenever liberals speak. That meme is associated with the use of honk honk ("HH") as a dog whistle for heil Hitler. It is worse than I thought. At least "woke" has to be used "ironically" to be coopted. There's literally no where to go with "heil hitler" - it's written right on the tin. Why is our discourse polluted with these dog whistles? [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clown_world https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clown_world
- braingenious 4y ago
  > Why is our discourse polluted with these dog whistles? Because neo-nazis have essentially perfected coopting “respectability” politics in public online discourse. Calling out dogwhistles can have a nasty blowback effect because they’ve manufactured cover (eg “I’m just quoting what [a party with unknown intentions] wrote on wikipedia!”) that gives them footing to claim misinterpretation at the mildest, or outright persecution in other cases. HN is actually a really interesting case for this stuff, because the Primary Sin here is “violating decorum”. If I wanted to A/B test hateful dogwhistles, this site would be the perfect place. Nobody is allowed to post “Fuck off nazi/tankie/[insert other toxic group]” Respectability and Decorum are how we open the door to obvious but just-subtle-enough crap like that.
  - braingenious 4y ago
    I have a follow up post to this downthread. You can find it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34423773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34423773
braingenious 4y ago
> To be clear, I was trying to refer to the leftist ideology taken to an extreme, such that you try to be so anti-racist that you become racist yourself (against whites, for example). “The REAL nazis are people that don’t buy into the great replacement theory!” This isn’t a dogwhistle, this is a foghorn.
- wizeman 4y ago
  > “The REAL nazis are people that don’t buy into the great replacement theory!” If you are insinuating that this is what I think or what I was trying to convey, I can assure you, it's not. I don't believe in the great replacement theory, never have and wouldn't even care if some race (including whites) is being somehow replaced somewhere (or everywhere) due to migration or cultural acceptance of other races or whatever the hell the (conspiracy?) theory is about nowadays. I've met and became friends (even best friends) with people of many different races (yes, including black people) and cultures and I like all of them, no exception. I am willing to admit I may not always recognize racist behavior when I see it, as in some cases it can be hard to see unless you're in the receiving end of it (or even if you are). But you can't gaslight me into thinking that obvious racist behavior is not racist, even if it's presumably being done to supposedly accomplish some kind of moral goal. Many terrorists also have good intentions, that doesn't mean that the means they use to accomplish their goals are acceptable. There are many ways to accomplish the same anti-racist goal without resorting to overt... racism.
  - braingenious 4y ago
    Buddy I’m not falling for your pivot from “innocently quoting wikipedia” to your sudden interest in “the left hates whites” discourse. Nobody is required to rehash /pol/ debates. You gave yourself away with the clown world stuff. Oops!
    - wizeman 4y ago
      You are misrepresenting my points. I don't believe the left hates whites. Where did you get that from? When I was referring to the clown world stuff, I was talking about the extreme side of the left (which I'm assuming is where you stand?). It was not a sudden interest either, it was in response to your (apparently misguided) theory that "woke" was an artificially constructed pejorative, rather than a term that was positive but simply became negatively associated due to these extreme cases becoming more common (or at least, more visible) in the past decade. Look, I have just as much criticism about the right (especially the far right, of course) as the left, OK? Including overt racist behavior and narratives. We can definitely talk about that if you want! I was just following the conversation, nothing more.

akiselev 4y ago

I was skeptical about the GP's alleged etymology about clown world but... [1] > The alt-right sense emerged from The Honkler, a version of Pepe the Frog meme featuring a red clown nose and rainbow wig, characterized as honking a bicycle horn whenever liberals speak. That meme is associated with the use of honk honk ("HH") as a dog whistle for heil Hitler. It is worse than I thought. At least "woke" has to be used "ironically" to be coopted. There's literally no where to go with "heil hitler" - it's written right on the tin. Why is our discourse polluted with these dog whistles? [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clown_world https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clown_world

braingenious 4y ago
> Why is our discourse polluted with these dog whistles? Because neo-nazis have essentially perfected coopting “respectability” politics in public online discourse. Calling out dogwhistles can have a nasty blowback effect because they’ve manufactured cover (eg “I’m just quoting what [a party with unknown intentions] wrote on wikipedia!”) that gives them footing to claim misinterpretation at the mildest, or outright persecution in other cases. HN is actually a really interesting case for this stuff, because the Primary Sin here is “violating decorum”. If I wanted to A/B test hateful dogwhistles, this site would be the perfect place. Nobody is allowed to post “Fuck off nazi/tankie/[insert other toxic group]” Respectability and Decorum are how we open the door to obvious but just-subtle-enough crap like that.
- braingenious 4y ago
  I have a follow up post to this downthread. You can find it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34423773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34423773

braingenious 4y ago

> To be clear, I was trying to refer to the leftist ideology taken to an extreme, such that you try to be so anti-racist that you become racist yourself (against whites, for example). “The REAL nazis are people that don’t buy into the great replacement theory!” This isn’t a dogwhistle, this is a foghorn.

wizeman 4y ago
> “The REAL nazis are people that don’t buy into the great replacement theory!” If you are insinuating that this is what I think or what I was trying to convey, I can assure you, it's not. I don't believe in the great replacement theory, never have and wouldn't even care if some race (including whites) is being somehow replaced somewhere (or everywhere) due to migration or cultural acceptance of other races or whatever the hell the (conspiracy?) theory is about nowadays. I've met and became friends (even best friends) with people of many different races (yes, including black people) and cultures and I like all of them, no exception. I am willing to admit I may not always recognize racist behavior when I see it, as in some cases it can be hard to see unless you're in the receiving end of it (or even if you are). But you can't gaslight me into thinking that obvious racist behavior is not racist, even if it's presumably being done to supposedly accomplish some kind of moral goal. Many terrorists also have good intentions, that doesn't mean that the means they use to accomplish their goals are acceptable. There are many ways to accomplish the same anti-racist goal without resorting to overt... racism.
- braingenious 4y ago
  Buddy I’m not falling for your pivot from “innocently quoting wikipedia” to your sudden interest in “the left hates whites” discourse. Nobody is required to rehash /pol/ debates. You gave yourself away with the clown world stuff. Oops!
  - wizeman 4y ago
    You are misrepresenting my points. I don't believe the left hates whites. Where did you get that from? When I was referring to the clown world stuff, I was talking about the extreme side of the left (which I'm assuming is where you stand?). It was not a sudden interest either, it was in response to your (apparently misguided) theory that "woke" was an artificially constructed pejorative, rather than a term that was positive but simply became negatively associated due to these extreme cases becoming more common (or at least, more visible) in the past decade. Look, I have just as much criticism about the right (especially the far right, of course) as the left, OK? Including overt racist behavior and narratives. We can definitely talk about that if you want! I was just following the conversation, nothing more.