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I have the sneaking suspicion that "woke" has been turned into a dog whistle used by right leaning people. Maybe it's the new "uppity." Given how commonly it i

I have the sneaking suspicion that "woke" has been turned into a dog whistle used by right leaning people. Maybe it's the new "uppity." Given how commonly it is used on this website which I otherwise appreciate, I would love to be convinced that this is not the case. To that end: 1) Can anyone who freely uses the word "woke" pejoratively please define "woke" as you use it? 2) Can you please tell me the opposite of "woke?"

ovao 4y ago
Defining it succinctly is hard, but I’d describe ‘wokeism’ as a kind of opposite of ‘traditionalism’, or the belief that any traditional societal views & perspectives are necessarily detrimental.
natch 4y ago
1) a stab at a definition: groupthink Karenism with attempted (often successful) group enforcement 2) a stab at the opposite of woke: Live and let live Interestingly it’s not the opposite of conservative. It shares a lot of conservatism’s intolerance in some ways. Ayan Hirsi Ali, who grew up witnessing the transformation of her culture from open and liberal to one stifled and strictly controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, says that she sees in the growing woke phenomenon the same oppressive progression that horrified her with the cultural change of her youth.
dang 4y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34415252 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34415252.
- consumer451 4y ago
  I have never seen this happen before. I am owed no explanation, but huh? What just happened and maybe why? Thanks. edit: oh, I see https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=We%20detached%20this%20subthread&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... Hmm, this seems on topic and was the opposite of flame bait. I am confused. I was genuinely curious in the interest of discussion and learning. The OP had the word "woke" it, and was not removed even though it is clearly all about politics. I don't get it.
  - dang 4y ago
    It was a swerve into a generic ideological flamewar direction. We're trying to avoid that on this site because it tends to lead to more predictable, nastier, and less curious discussion. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
    - consumer451 4y ago
      Thanks
    - consumer451 4y ago
      If I was king of HN I would just auto-flag any post with the word "woke" in it. That word is never about tech, and is 100% politics, but it feels like it gets a pass here somehow. However, it is also a generic word and not easy to just filter I suppose. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=true&query=Woke&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=tru...
skissane 4y ago
> I have the sneaking suspicion that "woke" has been turned into a dog whistle used by right leaning people. Maybe it's the new "uppity." Here's an article by an African-American Marxist university professor, attacking "woke": https://newrepublic.com/article/160305/beyond-great-awokening https://newrepublic.com/article/160305/beyond-great-awokenin... So it isn't true that only "right-leaning" people use the term negatively. > 1) Can anyone who freely uses the word "woke" pejoratively please define "woke" as you use it? I think, when people (either from the left or the right) attack "woke", one thing they are attacking, is a particular, very influential, form of contemporary left-wing thought, which (among other features) treats race, gender identity, and sexual orientation, as higher priorities (at least in practice) than the traditional left-wing focus on economic inequality and social class. If you read Adolph Reed's criticisms of "woke" to which I linked above, that definition is rather similar to how he defines it (although in that article he zeroes in on the race element in particular, and avoids the topics of sexual orientation and gender identity). I actually don't like the term, due to its pejorative nature – I'd much rather we have non-pejorative names for things – but I'm not sure what would be a neutral replacement. I feel like, a lot of people who object to the name, do not do so because they'd prefer a more neutral name, rather they'd prefer it not be named at all, to make it harder for people to criticise it. > 2) Can you please tell me the opposite of "woke?" Well, if we understand it as a particular, very influential, variety of contemporary left-wing thought, it doesn't have a single "opposite" as such. Right-wing thought, in all its various forms, is an example of something which isn't "woke". But, traditional Marxism, such as that of Adolph Reed, is also an example of something which isn't "woke". If you want to find other traditional Marxists taking swipes at "woke", you don't have to go far – to just give a random example, the Trotskyist International Committee of the Fourth International published a review of the sitcom Abbott Elementary, which includes the line "In fact, in its treatment of Jacob’s wokeness, Abbott Elementary refreshingly mocks the suffocating trend of racialism in American culture" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/03/01/abbo-m01.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/03/01/abbo-m01.html – say what you like about Trotskyists, but if we are going to start calling them "conservatives" or "rightwing", then I don't think those two words have any meaning any more
- xupybd 4y ago
  I think left wing authoritarian identitarianism is the best neutral term I have heard. I'm not sure if that would be found offensive however.

ovao 4y ago

Defining it succinctly is hard, but I’d describe ‘wokeism’ as a kind of opposite of ‘traditionalism’, or the belief that any traditional societal views & perspectives are necessarily detrimental.

natch 4y ago

1) a stab at a definition: groupthink Karenism with attempted (often successful) group enforcement 2) a stab at the opposite of woke: Live and let live Interestingly it’s not the opposite of conservative. It shares a lot of conservatism’s intolerance in some ways. Ayan Hirsi Ali, who grew up witnessing the transformation of her culture from open and liberal to one stifled and strictly controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, says that she sees in the growing woke phenomenon the same oppressive progression that horrified her with the cultural change of her youth.

dang 4y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34415252 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34415252.

consumer451 4y ago
I have never seen this happen before. I am owed no explanation, but huh? What just happened and maybe why? Thanks. edit: oh, I see https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=We%20detached%20this%20subthread&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... Hmm, this seems on topic and was the opposite of flame bait. I am confused. I was genuinely curious in the interest of discussion and learning. The OP had the word "woke" it, and was not removed even though it is clearly all about politics. I don't get it.
- dang 4y ago
  It was a swerve into a generic ideological flamewar direction. We're trying to avoid that on this site because it tends to lead to more predictable, nastier, and less curious discussion. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
  - consumer451 4y ago
    Thanks
  - consumer451 4y ago
    If I was king of HN I would just auto-flag any post with the word "woke" in it. That word is never about tech, and is 100% politics, but it feels like it gets a pass here somehow. However, it is also a generic word and not easy to just filter I suppose. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=true&query=Woke&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=tru...

skissane 4y ago

> I have the sneaking suspicion that "woke" has been turned into a dog whistle used by right leaning people. Maybe it's the new "uppity." Here's an article by an African-American Marxist university professor, attacking "woke": https://newrepublic.com/article/160305/beyond-great-awokening https://newrepublic.com/article/160305/beyond-great-awokenin... So it isn't true that only "right-leaning" people use the term negatively. > 1) Can anyone who freely uses the word "woke" pejoratively please define "woke" as you use it? I think, when people (either from the left or the right) attack "woke", one thing they are attacking, is a particular, very influential, form of contemporary left-wing thought, which (among other features) treats race, gender identity, and sexual orientation, as higher priorities (at least in practice) than the traditional left-wing focus on economic inequality and social class. If you read Adolph Reed's criticisms of "woke" to which I linked above, that definition is rather similar to how he defines it (although in that article he zeroes in on the race element in particular, and avoids the topics of sexual orientation and gender identity). I actually don't like the term, due to its pejorative nature – I'd much rather we have non-pejorative names for things – but I'm not sure what would be a neutral replacement. I feel like, a lot of people who object to the name, do not do so because they'd prefer a more neutral name, rather they'd prefer it not be named at all, to make it harder for people to criticise it. > 2) Can you please tell me the opposite of "woke?" Well, if we understand it as a particular, very influential, variety of contemporary left-wing thought, it doesn't have a single "opposite" as such. Right-wing thought, in all its various forms, is an example of something which isn't "woke". But, traditional Marxism, such as that of Adolph Reed, is also an example of something which isn't "woke". If you want to find other traditional Marxists taking swipes at "woke", you don't have to go far – to just give a random example, the Trotskyist International Committee of the Fourth International published a review of the sitcom Abbott Elementary, which includes the line "In fact, in its treatment of Jacob’s wokeness, Abbott Elementary refreshingly mocks the suffocating trend of racialism in American culture" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/03/01/abbo-m01.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/03/01/abbo-m01.html – say what you like about Trotskyists, but if we are going to start calling them "conservatives" or "rightwing", then I don't think those two words have any meaning any more

xupybd 4y ago
I think left wing authoritarian identitarianism is the best neutral term I have heard. I'm not sure if that would be found offensive however.