5 ms·

My favorite history professor in college gave open book essay exams. He asked your opinion on topics, "what were the motivations of the leaders of the US revol

My favorite history professor in college gave open book essay exams. He asked your opinion on topics, "what were the motivations of the leaders of the US revolution?" Even better were the questions that ended in "why or why not?" There were no right or wrong answers, if you could justify your answer in a reasonable manner, you got full points. Some students hated his tests, some students loved his tests. The students who hated his tests really hated them, the students who loved them, really loved them. (I was in the loved them group!) Getting a Computer Science degree felt awfully similar, especially in higher level classes. Students of course had to do a senior project, 6 months to make something real in a group of 5. One group of students spun their project out commercially and and made some good money off of it. My group make a photo library management app that was designed to allow for rapidly tagging hundreds to thousands of photos, utilizing custom experimental UI concepts. (This is when Google Picassa was still a big deal) When we started out we didn't know if we'd succeed, after all "experimental UI", "handles libraries with thousands of photos" and "desktop app written in Java" weren't typically phrases that went hand in hand back in the mid 00s. But we did it! Which kind of summarizes my entire career in software engineering. If I'm not scared and uncertain of how I am going to do something, of if something is even possible, than I probably am not tackling a hard enough problem.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago
I would hate open-ended questions like that if I didn't know the professor and I didn't know the grading, because it relies on the professor's ability to evaluate what is reasonable justification. I'm sure if the professor was great, this strategy is wonderful, but it also relies on a leap of faith in terms of the student. For example, if I was a black man and the teacher was white, my essays about slavery would be not about if I learned the material but my trying to work around determining how racist a teacher might be.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  That's rough, since getting to the point of being able to answer and evaluate answers to those kinds of questions is, like, a really big part of working in the humanities. It's probably the single most important skill for an undergrad in humanities courses to pick up.
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  > For example, if I was a black man and the teacher was white, my essays about slavery would be not about if I learned the material but my trying to work around determining how racist a teacher might be. That would be a valid concern regardless or your or professor’s race. And even if we take into account that people are more biased towards opinions that elevate them, we should also take into account what an average college history teacher believes in. At that point you should probably be worried that your view isn’t Marxist enough.
  - Tostino 4y ago
    That's an interesting take, one that I don't believe is backed up by the data. Show me an economics program in the US pushing Marxist theory throughout.
    - telotortium 4y ago
      We're not talking about an economics program - that would not likely have a Marxist professor - but rather a history class, which could easily have one.
    - roarcher 4y ago
      Do economics programs ever push a single theory? They're supposed to teach you about the whole field, no?
      - dagw 4y ago
        While my Economics courses did offer insight into various schools of economic thought and different teachers had slightly different views on various topics, the basic premise that "Capitalism is awesome" was pretty much treated as axiomatic in every course I took.
    - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
      Economics stands apart from other social sciences in its culture. It has pivoted quite heavily when it was transformed from political economy into economics during the marginal revolution. And while Marx can be jokingly referred as "a minor post-Ricardian" by some economists, he is considered a father of sociology alongside Comte, Weber, Durkheim and Spencer. Data on Marxist self-identification among professors, table 12: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287093322_The_social_and_political_views_of_American_college_and_university_professors https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287093322_The_socia...
- com2kid 4y ago
  > I'm sure if the professor was great, this strategy is wonderful, but it also relies on a leap of faith in terms of the student. He was a quality professor who gave full marks to answers that disagreed with what he presented in class, so long as the answers were well justified. You are right though, these types of exams can easily end up becoming a game of "can I answer how the professor wants me to answer".
- bigmattystyles 4y ago
  Replace professor with TA. But yea, bias on subjective questions is a thing for sure. Racism is probably the big one, though in your scenario, a white student could wonder, if you, a theoretical black student, got a better grade because the professor didn’t want to appear racist. You can drive yourself insane thinking about it.
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  >I would hate open-ended questions like that if I didn't know the professor and I didn't know the grading, because it relies on the professor's ability to evaluate what is reasonable justification. After my first stint in college I took about a decade off before returning for graduate school. I made it a policy to research all of my professors before classes began. If they had a book published, I bought it, and read it. It gave me remarkable insight into all of my professors (at least the ones who had published) before class actually began, and made it much easier to navigate the subjective grading minefield that so often exists.
lumb63 4y ago
A similar phenomenon I’ve found, is if I know something can be done, I will work at it until it is done. For example, I’ve come up with solutions in interviews that I thought were the best, and then the interviewer says, “can it be done in O(n) time?” At that point, something clicks in my brain that says, “oh, of course it can!” If only I could find a way to tap into that in advance.
- philwelch 4y ago
  There is a possibly apocryphal story of Heisenberg and the other German a-bomb scientists basically doing this in captivity upon learning of the success of the Manhattan Project (not building a working bomb, but reasoning out how it was done!)
  - jcranmer 4y ago
    This is the Farm Hall transcripts, and it really happened. (I don't know if they fully worked out how the bomb worked, but they at least discussed it).
- ravi-delia 4y ago
  The time complexity is real. I always say that I can give you an algorithm in any complexity you want- so make sure you don't give me any lower than is possible, or the garbage I put out won't work.
heavyset_go 4y ago
I had a teacher that did that in high school, but they were clearly looking for certain answers to open ended questions. An aspect of the class was determining just what kind of answers the grader would grade highly over other equally valid answers. At least with other kinds of tests, there's much less room for bias or interpretation, even if it still exists.
- IIsi50MHz 4y ago
  Faced with such situations, tended to write out what seemed expected, then followed up with other considerations or why it was wrong[1]. Even more so, if the "question" was actually a seven question prompt [2]. [1] Sometimes simply due to the wording of the prompt having an error that should provoke an answer which, given the prior presentation of the topic, can't be what the teacher intended. [2] Because telling us we're having a 10-question pop quiz that is really a mis-numbered 37-question essay test is an evil up with which we shall not put. (-:
OJFord 4y ago
I really think all engineering exams should be open book, it's how we work. Bonus: suddenly much of 'cheating' is no longer a concern. You can ask harder questions! But when I know the technique I should be allowed to look up the formula. (Except I graduated years ago...)
jjice 4y ago
> If I'm not scared and uncertain of how I am going to do something, of if something is even possible, than I probably am not tackling a hard enough problem. I like that sentence a lot. I'm working on something new at my job that's hard and uncertain, and it's the most fun and motivated I've been in my (fairly short) career as a software engineer. I might keep that idea around as a heuristic.
diordiderot 4y ago
> asked your opinion on topics This is how International baccalaureate, french baccalaureate, and English A-levels courses generally go.
torben-friis 4y ago
In my country, the system to access university includes a philosophy exam that works similarly. You are given a text to understand, summarise, discuss, and compare with a different author. They are testing for reading skills, reasoning and expression, so there is no good answer - knowing the works of different authors just makes it more likely that you'll know some ideas similar to the text at hand, but if you don't happen to know something similar you can, say, get a text by Marx and compare it to Plato, as long as you make a decent argument on the connection.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago

I would hate open-ended questions like that if I didn't know the professor and I didn't know the grading, because it relies on the professor's ability to evaluate what is reasonable justification. I'm sure if the professor was great, this strategy is wonderful, but it also relies on a leap of faith in terms of the student. For example, if I was a black man and the teacher was white, my essays about slavery would be not about if I learned the material but my trying to work around determining how racist a teacher might be.

yamtaddle 4y ago
That's rough, since getting to the point of being able to answer and evaluate answers to those kinds of questions is, like, a really big part of working in the humanities. It's probably the single most important skill for an undergrad in humanities courses to pick up.
LudwigNagasena 4y ago
> For example, if I was a black man and the teacher was white, my essays about slavery would be not about if I learned the material but my trying to work around determining how racist a teacher might be. That would be a valid concern regardless or your or professor’s race. And even if we take into account that people are more biased towards opinions that elevate them, we should also take into account what an average college history teacher believes in. At that point you should probably be worried that your view isn’t Marxist enough.
- Tostino 4y ago
  That's an interesting take, one that I don't believe is backed up by the data. Show me an economics program in the US pushing Marxist theory throughout.
  - telotortium 4y ago
    We're not talking about an economics program - that would not likely have a Marxist professor - but rather a history class, which could easily have one.
  - roarcher 4y ago
    Do economics programs ever push a single theory? They're supposed to teach you about the whole field, no?
    - dagw 4y ago
      While my Economics courses did offer insight into various schools of economic thought and different teachers had slightly different views on various topics, the basic premise that "Capitalism is awesome" was pretty much treated as axiomatic in every course I took.
  - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
    Economics stands apart from other social sciences in its culture. It has pivoted quite heavily when it was transformed from political economy into economics during the marginal revolution. And while Marx can be jokingly referred as "a minor post-Ricardian" by some economists, he is considered a father of sociology alongside Comte, Weber, Durkheim and Spencer. Data on Marxist self-identification among professors, table 12: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287093322_The_social_and_political_views_of_American_college_and_university_professors https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287093322_The_socia...
com2kid 4y ago
> I'm sure if the professor was great, this strategy is wonderful, but it also relies on a leap of faith in terms of the student. He was a quality professor who gave full marks to answers that disagreed with what he presented in class, so long as the answers were well justified. You are right though, these types of exams can easily end up becoming a game of "can I answer how the professor wants me to answer".
bigmattystyles 4y ago
Replace professor with TA. But yea, bias on subjective questions is a thing for sure. Racism is probably the big one, though in your scenario, a white student could wonder, if you, a theoretical black student, got a better grade because the professor didn’t want to appear racist. You can drive yourself insane thinking about it.
StanislavPetrov 4y ago
>I would hate open-ended questions like that if I didn't know the professor and I didn't know the grading, because it relies on the professor's ability to evaluate what is reasonable justification. After my first stint in college I took about a decade off before returning for graduate school. I made it a policy to research all of my professors before classes began. If they had a book published, I bought it, and read it. It gave me remarkable insight into all of my professors (at least the ones who had published) before class actually began, and made it much easier to navigate the subjective grading minefield that so often exists.

lumb63 4y ago

A similar phenomenon I’ve found, is if I know something can be done, I will work at it until it is done. For example, I’ve come up with solutions in interviews that I thought were the best, and then the interviewer says, “can it be done in O(n) time?” At that point, something clicks in my brain that says, “oh, of course it can!” If only I could find a way to tap into that in advance.

philwelch 4y ago
There is a possibly apocryphal story of Heisenberg and the other German a-bomb scientists basically doing this in captivity upon learning of the success of the Manhattan Project (not building a working bomb, but reasoning out how it was done!)
- jcranmer 4y ago
  This is the Farm Hall transcripts, and it really happened. (I don't know if they fully worked out how the bomb worked, but they at least discussed it).
ravi-delia 4y ago
The time complexity is real. I always say that I can give you an algorithm in any complexity you want- so make sure you don't give me any lower than is possible, or the garbage I put out won't work.

heavyset_go 4y ago

I had a teacher that did that in high school, but they were clearly looking for certain answers to open ended questions. An aspect of the class was determining just what kind of answers the grader would grade highly over other equally valid answers. At least with other kinds of tests, there's much less room for bias or interpretation, even if it still exists.

IIsi50MHz 4y ago
Faced with such situations, tended to write out what seemed expected, then followed up with other considerations or why it was wrong[1]. Even more so, if the "question" was actually a seven question prompt [2]. [1] Sometimes simply due to the wording of the prompt having an error that should provoke an answer which, given the prior presentation of the topic, can't be what the teacher intended. [2] Because telling us we're having a 10-question pop quiz that is really a mis-numbered 37-question essay test is an evil up with which we shall not put. (-:

OJFord 4y ago

I really think all engineering exams should be open book, it's how we work. Bonus: suddenly much of 'cheating' is no longer a concern. You can ask harder questions! But when I know the technique I should be allowed to look up the formula. (Except I graduated years ago...)

jjice 4y ago

> If I'm not scared and uncertain of how I am going to do something, of if something is even possible, than I probably am not tackling a hard enough problem. I like that sentence a lot. I'm working on something new at my job that's hard and uncertain, and it's the most fun and motivated I've been in my (fairly short) career as a software engineer. I might keep that idea around as a heuristic.

diordiderot 4y ago

> asked your opinion on topics This is how International baccalaureate, french baccalaureate, and English A-levels courses generally go.

torben-friis 4y ago

In my country, the system to access university includes a philosophy exam that works similarly. You are given a text to understand, summarise, discuss, and compare with a different author. They are testing for reading skills, reasoning and expression, so there is no good answer - knowing the works of different authors just makes it more likely that you'll know some ideas similar to the text at hand, but if you don't happen to know something similar you can, say, get a text by Marx and compare it to Plato, as long as you make a decent argument on the connection.