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Or, rather than posting non-sense, you could learn about what "woke" usually means in this context, which I can quote for you [1]: "shorthand for American Left

Or, rather than posting non-sense, you could learn about what "woke" usually means in this context, which I can quote for you [1]: "shorthand for American Left ideas involving identity politics and social justice" "By 2020, members of the political center and right wing in several Western countries were using the term woke, often in an ironic way, as an insult for various progressive or leftist movements and ideologies perceived as overzealous, performative, or insincere. In turn, some commentators came to consider it an offensive term with negative associations to those who promote political ideas involving identity and race." Unless, of course, you believe that the term "general population" excludes the "political center and right wing in several Western countries" and only includes "the American Left". That said, just to be clear: when I used the term "woke", I did not mean it in an insulting or pejorative way, only as a means to describe the ideology itself. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

braingenious 4y ago
I like how you only quoted the half of the definition that supports your personal definition of “woke.” Here’s the first half! “Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand” Rather than posting non-sense you could admit that there is a difference between “has been used as shorthand…” is different from “The definition of this word is: shorthand for…” It’s kind of odd, it’s almost as if there is a group of right wing culture warriors that insist that anyone that doesn’t use their artificially constructed pejorative the same way that they do is part of some vast gay communist conspiracy.
- wizeman 4y ago
  > Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism You are right, it also encompasses this meaning. Regardless, my point still stands. > It’s kind of odd, it’s almost as if there is a group of right wing culture warriors that insist that anyone that doesn’t use their artificially constructed pejorative the same way that they do is part of some vast gay communist conspiracy. I don't think it's an artificially constructed pejorative, according to Wikipedia the term seems to come from the 1930s "referring to an awareness of the social and political issues affecting African Americans." I think it only started to be used in a negative way once all the clown world stuff came into full strength.
  - sli 4y ago
    If "woke" is going to be bucketed into purely leftist ideology, which is already oversimplifying it as progressivism or simply being anti-racist isn't strictly leftist, then "clown world" is going to be bucketed as a neo-Nazi dogwhistle. Its origin on the internet was tightly bound to the "Honkler" meme, which was a neo-Nazi dogwhistle so thinly veiled that it was only denied by people with "1488" in their usernames. There was essentially no real attempt to try and present it as something else. Is spreading a neo-Nazi dogwhistle really a good push back against anti-racism?
    - wizeman 4y ago
      > Its origin on the internet was tightly bound to the "Honkler" meme, which was a neo-Nazi dogwhistle so thinly veiled that it was only denied by people with "1488" in their usernames. There was essentially no real attempt to try and present it as something else. > Is spreading a neo-Nazi dogwhistle really a good push back against anti-racism? lol, I have to admit, assuming you are right, I wasn't aware of the origin of the term "clown world". I guess I shouldn't use that term, then. To be clear, I was trying to refer to the leftist ideology taken to an extreme, such that you try to be so anti-racist that you become racist yourself (against whites, for example). Or you try to be so anti-sexist, that you become sexist (against men). Or that you are no longer allowed to use any word whatsoever because every word offends some snowflake of an individual. And also, of course, other extreme examples of behavior where it's clear that you're no longer contributing to a solution, but rather creating a new problem. There are many such recent examples of this kind of non-sense.
      - akiselev 4y ago
        I was skeptical about the GP's alleged etymology about clown world but... [1] > The alt-right sense emerged from The Honkler, a version of Pepe the Frog meme featuring a red clown nose and rainbow wig, characterized as honking a bicycle horn whenever liberals speak. That meme is associated with the use of honk honk ("HH") as a dog whistle for heil Hitler. It is worse than I thought. At least "woke" has to be used "ironically" to be coopted. There's literally no where to go with "heil hitler" - it's written right on the tin. Why is our discourse polluted with these dog whistles? [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clown_world https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clown_world
pyth0 4y ago
> "shorthand for American Left ideas involving identity politics and social justice" Where did you get that definition from? I searched for it in the article but found nothing. Everything from Disney to M&Ms to the very concept of pronouns in English have been called "woke", and as far as I'm concerned it's utterly meaningless at this point. edit - apologies totally missed the wiki link somehow. regardless, doesn't change anything else I said
- wizeman 4y ago
  > Everything from Disney to M&Ms Sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. > the very concept of pronouns in English have been called "woke" It's not "the very concept of pronouns" that is called "woke", what is "woke" in that context is using them inappropriately (or perhaps I should say, exaggerate their significance?) in order to impose a political agenda. This ties into the "identity politics" part of the meaning of "woke", which is not surprising because of what a pronoun is. > and as far as I'm concerned it's utterly meaningless at this point. Perhaps it is meaningless to you, but I assure you, the term is not meaningless for a lot of people.
  - pyth0 4y ago
    > Sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Those were two examples of the "outrage of the week" for fox news and right wing. But pick any week and it will be something new that is deemed "woke". > is using them inappropriately [...] in order to impose a political agenda. What agenda would that be? I don't see how someone wishing to be referred to by a specific pronoun should be political. In my mind it's just something I do to be respectful to people I interact with. > the term is not meaningless for a lot of people Outside of being a word used to put down people/ideas, what other purpose does it serve you? genuinely asking
    - wizeman 4y ago
      > What agenda would that be? Modern liberal politics. > I don't see how someone wishing to be referred to by a specific pronoun should be political. In my mind it's just something I do to be respectful to people I interact with. Well, ~99% of people don't need to specify the pronouns they wish to be called with because everybody already called them by those pronouns. So you should ask yourself: why are all these people putting their pronouns on their twitter profiles (or whatever)? It's clearly not to prevent other people from being disrespectful, because they weren't being disrespectful. So I think you are either being very naive or you are not being honest, because it's clear that the real point of specifying your pronouns is not to communicate to other people of what you wish to be called to prevent someone from being disrespectful (except for a minority of cases where people really do get confused). And furthermore, I also try to be respectful to the people I interact with. But in my view, respect is much more than calling someone him, her or whatever. In fact, even if someone would make an occasional mistake, it's not (and should not) be a big deal. It would certainly not be due to a lack of respect (assuming it's a genuine mistake). Note that nobody puts "please don't call me an asshole" in their Twitter bio, even though people are called assholes a lot more than they get their pronouns confused (again, except for a minority of people). So I'm fine if someone puts their pronouns in their bio if other people get them confused frequently. But even then, is that really the solution? Should that person also paint their pronouns in their forehead when they go outside, so that other people aren't disrespectful unintentionally? Or should they just learn to live with a minor grammatical annoyance? > Outside of being a word used to put down people/ideas, what other purpose does it serve you? genuinely asking It's a shorthand to describe modern liberal politics regarding identity politics, social justice, cancel culture, etc. Mind you, this is not the same liberal politics from a few decades ago. This is on a whole other level.
edmundsauto 4y ago
It's be more accurate to say the word "woke" is a conservative satire of the left side of the aisle - it does not convey meaning about the ideology itself, but about the reaction to it. It's also not super accurate to say its about identity politics, as the right leans heavily on that approach with different identities. Instead of race, it's being Christian. Everything is identity politics - abortion and 2A are possibly the 2 biggest conservative positions that derive from identity politics. When using an overarching term, I think "progressive politics" is less inflammatory than "woke" (which is generally not used for self-description). It has the nice effect of linguistically balancing out conservative politics - we can have "woke" versus "fascist", or we can say "progressive" versus "conservative".
- wizeman 4y ago
  I think what you're saying makes sense. I was not aware of the full breadth of negativity associated with the term "woke". I think I will start using the term "progressive politics" from now on (at least, as long as it makes sense). That said, there is a clear distinction between modern progressive politics (of the "woke" type) and the progressive politics from a few decades ago, and I think "woke" is a term that makes that distinction more clear. It's unfortunate that it has become so negatively charged, though.
  - edmundsauto 4y ago
    > there is a clear distinction between modern progressive politics (of the "woke" type) and the progressive politics from a few decades ago Not to be glib, but this is the nature of "progress" - it changes things. ;)
    - wizeman 4y ago
      > Not to be glib, but this is the nature of "progress" - it changes things. ;) Well, I genuinely hope you are right.. :) But note that not everything that we call or called "progress" is necessarily positive. We have made quite a few mistakes before which we thought was progress. Probably too many to mention, even, but as examples, I can think of the Dark Ages and Nazism. Mind you, I'm not saying modern liberal politics can be compared to these examples! I don't even known that much about history to be able to comment on them. It's just food for thought.
lamontcg 4y ago
"Woke" as used by conservatives now more or less just means that when you're an asshole in public that someone might actually call you on it. AIs produced by companies who want to sell to the general public will want them to generally not be acting like assholes. Similarly to how the workers in big-box stores generally don't express strong political opinions.
krapp 4y ago
>Or, rather than posting non-sense, you could learn about what "woke" usually means in this context, which I can quote for you I am well aware of what "woke" means, where the term came from, how it's been corrupted and by whom. >Unless, of course, you believe that the term "general population" excludes the "political center and right wing in several Western countries" and only includes "the American Left". Yes. Because the linked article is discussing an article by the National Review, an American conservative magazine, about the complex of beliefs among American conservatives about perceived left-wing bias in American media, with the specific concern of "woke" bias in AI being the latest iteration on the theme. Thus the "general population" of the American public, specifically the American conservative public, is the valid context under which these terms are being discussed.

braingenious 4y ago

I like how you only quoted the half of the definition that supports your personal definition of “woke.” Here’s the first half! “Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand” Rather than posting non-sense you could admit that there is a difference between “has been used as shorthand…” is different from “The definition of this word is: shorthand for…” It’s kind of odd, it’s almost as if there is a group of right wing culture warriors that insist that anyone that doesn’t use their artificially constructed pejorative the same way that they do is part of some vast gay communist conspiracy.

wizeman 4y ago
> Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism You are right, it also encompasses this meaning. Regardless, my point still stands. > It’s kind of odd, it’s almost as if there is a group of right wing culture warriors that insist that anyone that doesn’t use their artificially constructed pejorative the same way that they do is part of some vast gay communist conspiracy. I don't think it's an artificially constructed pejorative, according to Wikipedia the term seems to come from the 1930s "referring to an awareness of the social and political issues affecting African Americans." I think it only started to be used in a negative way once all the clown world stuff came into full strength.
- sli 4y ago
  If "woke" is going to be bucketed into purely leftist ideology, which is already oversimplifying it as progressivism or simply being anti-racist isn't strictly leftist, then "clown world" is going to be bucketed as a neo-Nazi dogwhistle. Its origin on the internet was tightly bound to the "Honkler" meme, which was a neo-Nazi dogwhistle so thinly veiled that it was only denied by people with "1488" in their usernames. There was essentially no real attempt to try and present it as something else. Is spreading a neo-Nazi dogwhistle really a good push back against anti-racism?
  - wizeman 4y ago
    > Its origin on the internet was tightly bound to the "Honkler" meme, which was a neo-Nazi dogwhistle so thinly veiled that it was only denied by people with "1488" in their usernames. There was essentially no real attempt to try and present it as something else. > Is spreading a neo-Nazi dogwhistle really a good push back against anti-racism? lol, I have to admit, assuming you are right, I wasn't aware of the origin of the term "clown world". I guess I shouldn't use that term, then. To be clear, I was trying to refer to the leftist ideology taken to an extreme, such that you try to be so anti-racist that you become racist yourself (against whites, for example). Or you try to be so anti-sexist, that you become sexist (against men). Or that you are no longer allowed to use any word whatsoever because every word offends some snowflake of an individual. And also, of course, other extreme examples of behavior where it's clear that you're no longer contributing to a solution, but rather creating a new problem. There are many such recent examples of this kind of non-sense.
    - akiselev 4y ago
      I was skeptical about the GP's alleged etymology about clown world but... [1] > The alt-right sense emerged from The Honkler, a version of Pepe the Frog meme featuring a red clown nose and rainbow wig, characterized as honking a bicycle horn whenever liberals speak. That meme is associated with the use of honk honk ("HH") as a dog whistle for heil Hitler. It is worse than I thought. At least "woke" has to be used "ironically" to be coopted. There's literally no where to go with "heil hitler" - it's written right on the tin. Why is our discourse polluted with these dog whistles? [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clown_world https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clown_world

pyth0 4y ago

> "shorthand for American Left ideas involving identity politics and social justice" Where did you get that definition from? I searched for it in the article but found nothing. Everything from Disney to M&Ms to the very concept of pronouns in English have been called "woke", and as far as I'm concerned it's utterly meaningless at this point. edit - apologies totally missed the wiki link somehow. regardless, doesn't change anything else I said

wizeman 4y ago
> Everything from Disney to M&Ms Sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. > the very concept of pronouns in English have been called "woke" It's not "the very concept of pronouns" that is called "woke", what is "woke" in that context is using them inappropriately (or perhaps I should say, exaggerate their significance?) in order to impose a political agenda. This ties into the "identity politics" part of the meaning of "woke", which is not surprising because of what a pronoun is. > and as far as I'm concerned it's utterly meaningless at this point. Perhaps it is meaningless to you, but I assure you, the term is not meaningless for a lot of people.
- pyth0 4y ago
  > Sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Those were two examples of the "outrage of the week" for fox news and right wing. But pick any week and it will be something new that is deemed "woke". > is using them inappropriately [...] in order to impose a political agenda. What agenda would that be? I don't see how someone wishing to be referred to by a specific pronoun should be political. In my mind it's just something I do to be respectful to people I interact with. > the term is not meaningless for a lot of people Outside of being a word used to put down people/ideas, what other purpose does it serve you? genuinely asking
  - wizeman 4y ago
    > What agenda would that be? Modern liberal politics. > I don't see how someone wishing to be referred to by a specific pronoun should be political. In my mind it's just something I do to be respectful to people I interact with. Well, ~99% of people don't need to specify the pronouns they wish to be called with because everybody already called them by those pronouns. So you should ask yourself: why are all these people putting their pronouns on their twitter profiles (or whatever)? It's clearly not to prevent other people from being disrespectful, because they weren't being disrespectful. So I think you are either being very naive or you are not being honest, because it's clear that the real point of specifying your pronouns is not to communicate to other people of what you wish to be called to prevent someone from being disrespectful (except for a minority of cases where people really do get confused). And furthermore, I also try to be respectful to the people I interact with. But in my view, respect is much more than calling someone him, her or whatever. In fact, even if someone would make an occasional mistake, it's not (and should not) be a big deal. It would certainly not be due to a lack of respect (assuming it's a genuine mistake). Note that nobody puts "please don't call me an asshole" in their Twitter bio, even though people are called assholes a lot more than they get their pronouns confused (again, except for a minority of people). So I'm fine if someone puts their pronouns in their bio if other people get them confused frequently. But even then, is that really the solution? Should that person also paint their pronouns in their forehead when they go outside, so that other people aren't disrespectful unintentionally? Or should they just learn to live with a minor grammatical annoyance? > Outside of being a word used to put down people/ideas, what other purpose does it serve you? genuinely asking It's a shorthand to describe modern liberal politics regarding identity politics, social justice, cancel culture, etc. Mind you, this is not the same liberal politics from a few decades ago. This is on a whole other level.

edmundsauto 4y ago

It's be more accurate to say the word "woke" is a conservative satire of the left side of the aisle - it does not convey meaning about the ideology itself, but about the reaction to it. It's also not super accurate to say its about identity politics, as the right leans heavily on that approach with different identities. Instead of race, it's being Christian. Everything is identity politics - abortion and 2A are possibly the 2 biggest conservative positions that derive from identity politics. When using an overarching term, I think "progressive politics" is less inflammatory than "woke" (which is generally not used for self-description). It has the nice effect of linguistically balancing out conservative politics - we can have "woke" versus "fascist", or we can say "progressive" versus "conservative".

wizeman 4y ago
I think what you're saying makes sense. I was not aware of the full breadth of negativity associated with the term "woke". I think I will start using the term "progressive politics" from now on (at least, as long as it makes sense). That said, there is a clear distinction between modern progressive politics (of the "woke" type) and the progressive politics from a few decades ago, and I think "woke" is a term that makes that distinction more clear. It's unfortunate that it has become so negatively charged, though.
- edmundsauto 4y ago
  > there is a clear distinction between modern progressive politics (of the "woke" type) and the progressive politics from a few decades ago Not to be glib, but this is the nature of "progress" - it changes things. ;)
  - wizeman 4y ago
    > Not to be glib, but this is the nature of "progress" - it changes things. ;) Well, I genuinely hope you are right.. :) But note that not everything that we call or called "progress" is necessarily positive. We have made quite a few mistakes before which we thought was progress. Probably too many to mention, even, but as examples, I can think of the Dark Ages and Nazism. Mind you, I'm not saying modern liberal politics can be compared to these examples! I don't even known that much about history to be able to comment on them. It's just food for thought.

lamontcg 4y ago

"Woke" as used by conservatives now more or less just means that when you're an asshole in public that someone might actually call you on it. AIs produced by companies who want to sell to the general public will want them to generally not be acting like assholes. Similarly to how the workers in big-box stores generally don't express strong political opinions.

krapp 4y ago

>Or, rather than posting non-sense, you could learn about what "woke" usually means in this context, which I can quote for you I am well aware of what "woke" means, where the term came from, how it's been corrupted and by whom. >Unless, of course, you believe that the term "general population" excludes the "political center and right wing in several Western countries" and only includes "the American Left". Yes. Because the linked article is discussing an article by the National Review, an American conservative magazine, about the complex of beliefs among American conservatives about perceived left-wing bias in American media, with the specific concern of "woke" bias in AI being the latest iteration on the theme. Thus the "general population" of the American public, specifically the American conservative public, is the valid context under which these terms are being discussed.