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These "current AI systems" that you're talking about were presumably specifically trained by "woke" Silicon Valley employees to reflect their opinions about wha

These "current AI systems" that you're talking about were presumably specifically trained by "woke" Silicon Valley employees to reflect their opinions about what the AI should answer [1], which are hardly representative of the general population's opinions. > If conservatives want a fascist chatbot they can train their own off of 8chan, Stormfront, Parlor, etc... I don't think conservatives want a fascist chatbot. They just don't want a biased "woke" one either. [1] https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt/ https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt/ > "human AI trainers provided conversations in which they played both sides—the user and an AI assistant." > "had AI trainers rank them. " > "We performed several iterations of this process."

krapp 4y ago
Actually, "woke" opinions do reflect those of the general population, which is exactly why conservatives feel they live in some kind of progressive hellscape.
- wizeman 4y ago
  Or, rather than posting non-sense, you could learn about what "woke" usually means in this context, which I can quote for you [1]: "shorthand for American Left ideas involving identity politics and social justice" "By 2020, members of the political center and right wing in several Western countries were using the term woke, often in an ironic way, as an insult for various progressive or leftist movements and ideologies perceived as overzealous, performative, or insincere. In turn, some commentators came to consider it an offensive term with negative associations to those who promote political ideas involving identity and race." Unless, of course, you believe that the term "general population" excludes the "political center and right wing in several Western countries" and only includes "the American Left". That said, just to be clear: when I used the term "woke", I did not mean it in an insulting or pejorative way, only as a means to describe the ideology itself. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
  - braingenious 4y ago
    I like how you only quoted the half of the definition that supports your personal definition of “woke.” Here’s the first half! “Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand” Rather than posting non-sense you could admit that there is a difference between “has been used as shorthand…” is different from “The definition of this word is: shorthand for…” It’s kind of odd, it’s almost as if there is a group of right wing culture warriors that insist that anyone that doesn’t use their artificially constructed pejorative the same way that they do is part of some vast gay communist conspiracy.
    - wizeman 4y ago
      > Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism You are right, it also encompasses this meaning. Regardless, my point still stands. > It’s kind of odd, it’s almost as if there is a group of right wing culture warriors that insist that anyone that doesn’t use their artificially constructed pejorative the same way that they do is part of some vast gay communist conspiracy. I don't think it's an artificially constructed pejorative, according to Wikipedia the term seems to come from the 1930s "referring to an awareness of the social and political issues affecting African Americans." I think it only started to be used in a negative way once all the clown world stuff came into full strength.
      - sli 4y ago
        If "woke" is going to be bucketed into purely leftist ideology, which is already oversimplifying it as progressivism or simply being anti-racist isn't strictly leftist, then "clown world" is going to be bucketed as a neo-Nazi dogwhistle. Its origin on the internet was tightly bound to the "Honkler" meme, which was a neo-Nazi dogwhistle so thinly veiled that it was only denied by people with "1488" in their usernames. There was essentially no real attempt to try and present it as something else. Is spreading a neo-Nazi dogwhistle really a good push back against anti-racism?
        4y ago
- aeternum 4y ago
  Not necessarily. We know for example that Twitter was a key source of training data for GPT and there is also clear evidence that tweets were heavily curated by a team that was pretty significantly left of center.
- calculatte 4y ago
  Do you think this because this is what our media portrays as the opinions of the general population or because there is hard data to back that statement up that you can share?
- scarmig 4y ago
  I don't think that's an accurate statement of facts on the ground. For instance, if you poll the general population about trans women participating in sports, a large majority of respondents are opposed to it: https://www.npr.org/2022/06/29/1107484965/transgender-athletes-trans-rights-gender-transition-poll https://www.npr.org/2022/06/29/1107484965/transgender-athlet... However, compare ChatGPT's responses to "What are the arguments for trans women participating in sports?" and "What are the arguments against trans women participating in sports?" That's not to say that trans women shouldn't be welcome in women's sports; the majority may be wrong about that, as they often are. It's not, however, a widely agreed upon consensus that they should. I'd point at that there's at least a tension between believing that "society is a hellscape dominated by racist/sexist/transphobic oppression" and believing that "woke opinions are reflective of the general population."
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  > Actually, "woke" opinions do reflect those of the general population I think a lot probably don't. A whole lot don't if you consider the scope of the entire developed world, not just the US. There's good support (at least in the US) for the liberal position on the last wave of fights over civil rights. Interracial marriage (this was still a tad controversial in the 90s, even, I recall it being a topic on daytime talk shows), gay marriage, that kind of thing. No abortion restrictions even into the third trimester? Not favored by the general population (and, notably, that's not what Roe and especially not what Casey-modified-Roe protected). Various trans rights issues and slogans can only seem universally-supported in certain bubbles—sentiment is much more reserved (conservative, if you will) among the general public. I recall the polling on "defund the police" looking really unfavorable. And so on. (Nb. I'm pretty damn "woke" myself, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em and I'm fairly sure the general population isn't solidly behind a lot of what gets labeled "woke")
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    > No abortion restrictions even into the third trimester? Not favored by the general population I think this one in particular is more popular in America than in Europe. Third trimester abortions are broadly banned in almost all of Europe, except when a doctor says it's medically necessary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe#Abortion_rules_per_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe#Abortion_ru... Personally I think France gets it about right, but saying this is sure to piss off a lot of people on both sides in America. It pisses off the conservatives because I oppose the total abortion ban they want, and it pisses off progressives because I don't favor legalizing elective third trimester abortions. The American discussion around this issue is extremely polarized.
- permo-w 4y ago
  this is pretty contentious, and based on your definition of "woke", which is a pretty vague word with unhelpful connotations a less mocking term would be "modern progressivism", which I would summarise as being something like thinking that you can be subconsciously prejudiced against a particular identity and that this is almost or entirely as bad as consciously being so this conflation is a huge problem. sure, subconscious bias exists. it would be weird if it didn't. and yes it's a problem. but acting like its just as bad as conscious bias basically signals to people who may have a bias here or there might as well be loud and proud about it because you'll treat them the same either way but in terms of the general population, I think that modern progressives are probably a similar size segment of society as the rabid conservatives, but because that segment contains most of the prominent voices in non-conservative-focused media, a majority of people just nod along or ignore it
- rayiner 4y ago
  Conservatives feel like they live in a progressive hellscape because the 8% of the population that’s “woke” has disproportionate power in media and communications—which everyone is exposed to every day: https://hiddentribes.us/profiles/ https://hiddentribes.us/profiles/
  - dctoedt 4y ago
    As long as we're doing sweeping generalizations: Perhaps white Christian nationalist conservatives just can't stand it that so many people reject what they (the WCNCs) claim to believe is Divine Will.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      The opposition to wokeness is far broader than “white Christian national conservatives.” Heck, the Republican Party alone is far broader than that. Most people don’t want their kids learning victimhood mentality in school, they don’t want the founding fathers redefined as slavers, they don’t think “the constitution is racist,” are fine distinguishing between men and women and having gender roles, don’t like retooling the language around small gender minorities (“Latinx,” etc.) My Biden voting dad hates the term “person of color” and my Biden voting mom is sending me articles complaining about schools dropping admissions tests. Heck, most people (60%) don’t even think we should give racial minorities special consideration in college admissions and hiring! That seems like the absolute floor for “woke” people, and I think it’s fair to say even many people who accept affirmative action aren’t “woke.”
      - dctoedt 4y ago
        What you're presenting is the Fox News version of "wokeness." Here's an alternative, from former Republican congressman Joe Walsh: "Being woke just means being empathetic. And tolerant. And willing to listen. And open to learning." https://twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/1615481522647171074 https://twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/1615481522647171074
        4y ago
- spritefs 4y ago
  > Actually, "woke" opinions do reflect those of the general population If woke here means thinking that racism is bad, sure. If it means supporting gay marriage or first trimester abortion, sure. If it means not being heteronormative, thinking that gender identity should be taught in public schools, thinking that affirmative action is good... you're starting to drift into fringe territory. Not saying I don't agree with fringe, but claiming these beliefs are majority doesn't agree with experience. For the record, most people I know are democrat voters If woke here means thinking that social justice and "systematic overhaul" (whatever that happens to mean) are a good idea, then from my own personal experience that's just corporate noise to people. The only place where I really saw a lot of this was in college where most of it was from administrators and a loud but small group of the student body There's a reason why Obama avoided a lot of these topics while campaigning

krapp 4y ago

Actually, "woke" opinions do reflect those of the general population, which is exactly why conservatives feel they live in some kind of progressive hellscape.

wizeman 4y ago
Or, rather than posting non-sense, you could learn about what "woke" usually means in this context, which I can quote for you [1]: "shorthand for American Left ideas involving identity politics and social justice" "By 2020, members of the political center and right wing in several Western countries were using the term woke, often in an ironic way, as an insult for various progressive or leftist movements and ideologies perceived as overzealous, performative, or insincere. In turn, some commentators came to consider it an offensive term with negative associations to those who promote political ideas involving identity and race." Unless, of course, you believe that the term "general population" excludes the "political center and right wing in several Western countries" and only includes "the American Left". That said, just to be clear: when I used the term "woke", I did not mean it in an insulting or pejorative way, only as a means to describe the ideology itself. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
- braingenious 4y ago
  I like how you only quoted the half of the definition that supports your personal definition of “woke.” Here’s the first half! “Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand” Rather than posting non-sense you could admit that there is a difference between “has been used as shorthand…” is different from “The definition of this word is: shorthand for…” It’s kind of odd, it’s almost as if there is a group of right wing culture warriors that insist that anyone that doesn’t use their artificially constructed pejorative the same way that they do is part of some vast gay communist conspiracy.
  - wizeman 4y ago
    > Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism You are right, it also encompasses this meaning. Regardless, my point still stands. > It’s kind of odd, it’s almost as if there is a group of right wing culture warriors that insist that anyone that doesn’t use their artificially constructed pejorative the same way that they do is part of some vast gay communist conspiracy. I don't think it's an artificially constructed pejorative, according to Wikipedia the term seems to come from the 1930s "referring to an awareness of the social and political issues affecting African Americans." I think it only started to be used in a negative way once all the clown world stuff came into full strength.
    - sli 4y ago
      If "woke" is going to be bucketed into purely leftist ideology, which is already oversimplifying it as progressivism or simply being anti-racist isn't strictly leftist, then "clown world" is going to be bucketed as a neo-Nazi dogwhistle. Its origin on the internet was tightly bound to the "Honkler" meme, which was a neo-Nazi dogwhistle so thinly veiled that it was only denied by people with "1488" in their usernames. There was essentially no real attempt to try and present it as something else. Is spreading a neo-Nazi dogwhistle really a good push back against anti-racism?
      - 4y ago
aeternum 4y ago
Not necessarily. We know for example that Twitter was a key source of training data for GPT and there is also clear evidence that tweets were heavily curated by a team that was pretty significantly left of center.
calculatte 4y ago
Do you think this because this is what our media portrays as the opinions of the general population or because there is hard data to back that statement up that you can share?
scarmig 4y ago
I don't think that's an accurate statement of facts on the ground. For instance, if you poll the general population about trans women participating in sports, a large majority of respondents are opposed to it: https://www.npr.org/2022/06/29/1107484965/transgender-athletes-trans-rights-gender-transition-poll https://www.npr.org/2022/06/29/1107484965/transgender-athlet... However, compare ChatGPT's responses to "What are the arguments for trans women participating in sports?" and "What are the arguments against trans women participating in sports?" That's not to say that trans women shouldn't be welcome in women's sports; the majority may be wrong about that, as they often are. It's not, however, a widely agreed upon consensus that they should. I'd point at that there's at least a tension between believing that "society is a hellscape dominated by racist/sexist/transphobic oppression" and believing that "woke opinions are reflective of the general population."
yamtaddle 4y ago
> Actually, "woke" opinions do reflect those of the general population I think a lot probably don't. A whole lot don't if you consider the scope of the entire developed world, not just the US. There's good support (at least in the US) for the liberal position on the last wave of fights over civil rights. Interracial marriage (this was still a tad controversial in the 90s, even, I recall it being a topic on daytime talk shows), gay marriage, that kind of thing. No abortion restrictions even into the third trimester? Not favored by the general population (and, notably, that's not what Roe and especially not what Casey-modified-Roe protected). Various trans rights issues and slogans can only seem universally-supported in certain bubbles—sentiment is much more reserved (conservative, if you will) among the general public. I recall the polling on "defund the police" looking really unfavorable. And so on. (Nb. I'm pretty damn "woke" myself, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em and I'm fairly sure the general population isn't solidly behind a lot of what gets labeled "woke")
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  > No abortion restrictions even into the third trimester? Not favored by the general population I think this one in particular is more popular in America than in Europe. Third trimester abortions are broadly banned in almost all of Europe, except when a doctor says it's medically necessary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe#Abortion_rules_per_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe#Abortion_ru... Personally I think France gets it about right, but saying this is sure to piss off a lot of people on both sides in America. It pisses off the conservatives because I oppose the total abortion ban they want, and it pisses off progressives because I don't favor legalizing elective third trimester abortions. The American discussion around this issue is extremely polarized.
permo-w 4y ago
this is pretty contentious, and based on your definition of "woke", which is a pretty vague word with unhelpful connotations a less mocking term would be "modern progressivism", which I would summarise as being something like thinking that you can be subconsciously prejudiced against a particular identity and that this is almost or entirely as bad as consciously being so this conflation is a huge problem. sure, subconscious bias exists. it would be weird if it didn't. and yes it's a problem. but acting like its just as bad as conscious bias basically signals to people who may have a bias here or there might as well be loud and proud about it because you'll treat them the same either way but in terms of the general population, I think that modern progressives are probably a similar size segment of society as the rabid conservatives, but because that segment contains most of the prominent voices in non-conservative-focused media, a majority of people just nod along or ignore it
rayiner 4y ago
Conservatives feel like they live in a progressive hellscape because the 8% of the population that’s “woke” has disproportionate power in media and communications—which everyone is exposed to every day: https://hiddentribes.us/profiles/ https://hiddentribes.us/profiles/
- dctoedt 4y ago
  As long as we're doing sweeping generalizations: Perhaps white Christian nationalist conservatives just can't stand it that so many people reject what they (the WCNCs) claim to believe is Divine Will.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    The opposition to wokeness is far broader than “white Christian national conservatives.” Heck, the Republican Party alone is far broader than that. Most people don’t want their kids learning victimhood mentality in school, they don’t want the founding fathers redefined as slavers, they don’t think “the constitution is racist,” are fine distinguishing between men and women and having gender roles, don’t like retooling the language around small gender minorities (“Latinx,” etc.) My Biden voting dad hates the term “person of color” and my Biden voting mom is sending me articles complaining about schools dropping admissions tests. Heck, most people (60%) don’t even think we should give racial minorities special consideration in college admissions and hiring! That seems like the absolute floor for “woke” people, and I think it’s fair to say even many people who accept affirmative action aren’t “woke.”
    - dctoedt 4y ago
      What you're presenting is the Fox News version of "wokeness." Here's an alternative, from former Republican congressman Joe Walsh: "Being woke just means being empathetic. And tolerant. And willing to listen. And open to learning." https://twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/1615481522647171074 https://twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/1615481522647171074
      - 4y ago
spritefs 4y ago
> Actually, "woke" opinions do reflect those of the general population If woke here means thinking that racism is bad, sure. If it means supporting gay marriage or first trimester abortion, sure. If it means not being heteronormative, thinking that gender identity should be taught in public schools, thinking that affirmative action is good... you're starting to drift into fringe territory. Not saying I don't agree with fringe, but claiming these beliefs are majority doesn't agree with experience. For the record, most people I know are democrat voters If woke here means thinking that social justice and "systematic overhaul" (whatever that happens to mean) are a good idea, then from my own personal experience that's just corporate noise to people. The only place where I really saw a lot of this was in college where most of it was from administrators and a loud but small group of the student body There's a reason why Obama avoided a lot of these topics while campaigning