4 ms·

> Why would they spend any amount much less $3b or $10b to keep people they don’t need/want? I understand that HN is a US-centric forum, where neoliberalism di

> Why would they spend any amount much less $3b or $10b to keep people they don’t need/want? I understand that HN is a US-centric forum, where neoliberalism dictates the baseline and the interpretation of all things in life is reduced to a simplistic transaction in a theoretical free market. However, society is comprised of people with family and a personal life and hopes and dreams and aspirations. Hiring someone has a profound impact on their life, and firing them moreso. There's the income aspect, but also the impact it has on where a person can live and consequently all roots their family have in a community. Hiring a person entails a tremendous social responsibility, and moreso firing them. Microsoft has a hefty amount of immigrants from all corners of the world, and some who have visas that limit the odds they can stay even in the country, let alone their community. It's deplorable how a company can toy with someone's life like that just because some exec feels like it.

applejacks 4y ago
Is it neoliberalism specifically, or even just generally living in a capitalist society? (Which hey, I'm happy enough to live in a capitalist society, it has been good to me, but I definitely notice myself evaluating nearly everything through a financial or transactional lens).
- burkaman 4y ago
  I think it's very easy to live in a capitalist society and still treat people as human beings rather than financial instruments, but if you live like that you probably will not become CEO of Microsoft.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Its a tragedy of public education that people do not realise that there are different kinds of capitalism. After all, slave trade was capitalism too. We just went through a massive transition from Kenzian to Neoliberal system, and nobody realised. The underperformance of Neoliberal system compared to its predessesor should be the biggest discussion point in all news. Noone has even heard of shumpeterian theory.
  - applejacks 4y ago
    Is the implication that some but not all kinds of capitalist societies would encourage or cause people to view many "normal" things (not just inherently or clearly transactional things) as transactional? What would be the kinds of capitalism that would or would not cause a transactional mindset to seep into all parts of life?
gwt4life 4y ago
Dont know why this got downvoted. HN to toilet.
dasil003 4y ago
This is an uncharitable take. The ability to fire at-will is the reason companies in the US are able to hire and pay as high as they do. As a dual-national Brazilian-American who has also spent years living in Europe, the social contracts are very different, and different people might value different things, but I'll take the downside layoff risk in exchange for upside in pay and mobility.
- simplotek 4y ago
  > This is an uncharitable take. The ability to fire at-will is the reason companies in the US are able to hire and pay as high as they do. I feel there is no rational basis for this belief, and it's mostly guided by wishful thinking to fool yourself into believing that all this penance leads to some kind of salvation. It doesn't. There are highly paid professionals in other countries who benefit from higher worke protection laws and even public services like working national health services and free education. Virtually all European countries ensure greater workers protection and half have a higher human development index than the US, and FANG salaries in Europe often lead to far greater disposable income. Heck, I personally know a FANG who was forced to pay overtime for oncalls in europe while US workers only get the pager app and the shaft. Also, being subjected to abuse is not a requirement for mobility. Mobility only requires that you can quit your job and apply for other positions. There is no piece in the equation that requires abusive revolving door hiring practices. People should shed their victim mentality and stop fooling themselves on how the path to riches is through suffering. It isn't. Basic human decency doesn't need to be thrown out of the window. That's only a requirement to screw over workers out of their rights and livelihood.
  - pandaman 4y ago
    >Heck, I personally know a FANG who was forced to pay overtime for oncalls in europe while US workers only get the pager app and the shaft. It does not follow that it leads to greater disposable income. Retail workers in the US also get paid overtime yet their disposable income is nowhere close to that of exempt (no overtime) programmers. Basically, with the tax rates in most of Europe, one's disposable income would be less even if the nominal income had been as same as in the US but it is not even close so you are, at best, misinformed when you think you get greater disposable income.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> I understand that HN is a US-centric forum, where neoliberalism dictates the baseline and the interpretation of all things in life is reduced to a simplistic transaction in a theoretical free market. The only reason Neofeudalism didn't quite arrive is that its difficult to get rid of unprofitable serfs. A lord was actually sort of responsible for his territory. Here you can dump unwantes on the state and voila, no responsebility!

applejacks 4y ago

Is it neoliberalism specifically, or even just generally living in a capitalist society? (Which hey, I'm happy enough to live in a capitalist society, it has been good to me, but I definitely notice myself evaluating nearly everything through a financial or transactional lens).

burkaman 4y ago
I think it's very easy to live in a capitalist society and still treat people as human beings rather than financial instruments, but if you live like that you probably will not become CEO of Microsoft.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Its a tragedy of public education that people do not realise that there are different kinds of capitalism. After all, slave trade was capitalism too. We just went through a massive transition from Kenzian to Neoliberal system, and nobody realised. The underperformance of Neoliberal system compared to its predessesor should be the biggest discussion point in all news. Noone has even heard of shumpeterian theory.
- applejacks 4y ago
  Is the implication that some but not all kinds of capitalist societies would encourage or cause people to view many "normal" things (not just inherently or clearly transactional things) as transactional? What would be the kinds of capitalism that would or would not cause a transactional mindset to seep into all parts of life?

gwt4life 4y ago

Dont know why this got downvoted. HN to toilet.

dasil003 4y ago

This is an uncharitable take. The ability to fire at-will is the reason companies in the US are able to hire and pay as high as they do. As a dual-national Brazilian-American who has also spent years living in Europe, the social contracts are very different, and different people might value different things, but I'll take the downside layoff risk in exchange for upside in pay and mobility.

simplotek 4y ago
> This is an uncharitable take. The ability to fire at-will is the reason companies in the US are able to hire and pay as high as they do. I feel there is no rational basis for this belief, and it's mostly guided by wishful thinking to fool yourself into believing that all this penance leads to some kind of salvation. It doesn't. There are highly paid professionals in other countries who benefit from higher worke protection laws and even public services like working national health services and free education. Virtually all European countries ensure greater workers protection and half have a higher human development index than the US, and FANG salaries in Europe often lead to far greater disposable income. Heck, I personally know a FANG who was forced to pay overtime for oncalls in europe while US workers only get the pager app and the shaft. Also, being subjected to abuse is not a requirement for mobility. Mobility only requires that you can quit your job and apply for other positions. There is no piece in the equation that requires abusive revolving door hiring practices. People should shed their victim mentality and stop fooling themselves on how the path to riches is through suffering. It isn't. Basic human decency doesn't need to be thrown out of the window. That's only a requirement to screw over workers out of their rights and livelihood.
- pandaman 4y ago
  >Heck, I personally know a FANG who was forced to pay overtime for oncalls in europe while US workers only get the pager app and the shaft. It does not follow that it leads to greater disposable income. Retail workers in the US also get paid overtime yet their disposable income is nowhere close to that of exempt (no overtime) programmers. Basically, with the tax rates in most of Europe, one's disposable income would be less even if the nominal income had been as same as in the US but it is not even close so you are, at best, misinformed when you think you get greater disposable income.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> I understand that HN is a US-centric forum, where neoliberalism dictates the baseline and the interpretation of all things in life is reduced to a simplistic transaction in a theoretical free market. The only reason Neofeudalism didn't quite arrive is that its difficult to get rid of unprofitable serfs. A lord was actually sort of responsible for his territory. Here you can dump unwantes on the state and voila, no responsebility!