13 ms·

Why should the West have more influence from the other side of the world than the largest economy in the region?

by xtian 4y ago

praestigiare 4y ago
I don't think the parent was discussing who should have influence, just the consequences of it.
kupopuffs 4y ago
It's not about what should be right. When the squeeze for survival comes, might makes right
ericmay 4y ago
Why not? Can we apply the same logic for China's influence in Africa, for example? Does geographic location matter more than, say, trade volume? Given that there isn't anything between the US and China (or Taiwan) except the ocean does that not give credence to the US being a partner in that area since it's a Pacific nation? If we're talking about the west, US, Japan, South Korea are either close or exceed Taiwan's trade with China, and that only includes western nations that are part of the Pacific Ocean directly (and doesn't include Canada, Australia, or New Zealand either).
- xtian 4y ago
  > If we're talking about the west, US, Japan, South Korea are either close or exceed Taiwan's trade with China 41% of Taiwan’s exports by dollar value went to China + Hong Kong in 2020 versus 25.4% for US + Japan + RoK. https://oec.world/en/profile/country/twn https://oec.world/en/profile/country/twn
  - ericmay 4y ago
    > The United States is Taiwan’s second largest trading partner, accounting for 12.6 percent of total trade and 10.2 percent of Taiwan imports. China is Taiwan’s largest trading partner, accounting for 25.2 percent of total trade and 21.6 percent of Taiwan’s imports in 2021. In terms of total trade, other major Taiwan trading partners include Japan (10.3 percent), Hong Kong (7.8 percent), and the Republic of Korea (6.1 percent). [1] But let’s assume the numbers you listed are correct (I’m sure trade varies by year and breakdown and I assume good faith). What does it matter? Does China get 41% influence over Taiwan and the US, Japan, and South Korea get 25.4% influence? The whole line of reasoning that started this was nonsense from the start and it doesn’t even include The Jungle [2] that is relations between nation states. [1] https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/taiwan-market-overview https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/taiwan-marke... [2] In international relations might largely makes right. Powerful countries are able to impose their will and influence on other countries. For example, the US imposes its will on China w.r.t Taiwan regardless of the amount of trade that occurs between nations.
amalgamated_inc 4y ago
Because we have 11 more carrier groups than everyone else combined.
- xtian 4y ago
  How do they do against hypersonic missiles?
  - amalgamated_inc 4y ago
    China hasn't seen combat since the Korean war. We've been at war the entire time. How's Russia doing, given their "hypersonic missiles?"
    - xtian 4y ago
      The US hasn’t been at war with peer militaries, and it’s been generally losing if you haven’t kept up. Russia is winning, but few in the West are willing to admit that yet. Here’s one who is: https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/whats-ahead-war-ukraine https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/whats-ahead-war-ukrai...
      - mensetmanusman 4y ago
        Russia is 10x the size of Ukraine and they will be seeing explosions in Moscow if they don’t end the war in 2023.
        xtian 4y ago
        Alright.
      - amalgamated_inc 4y ago
        Who are these fabled "peer militaries?" :D
        4y ago
toss1 4y ago
So, you are saying that "Might Makes Right"; the rulers of largest economy in the region should rule the region, regardless of what the people of that region want. I doubt you will find many people in Taiwan or Japan who would rather live under the government of CCP. So, Why should the West have more influence? Because any person or group of people who want to live a self-determined life and with a self-determined government, must always be better armed, better prepared, and have better alliances than the abusers and autocrats who will steal from them and rule over them the instant they are given the chance. If you don't stop the neighborhood bully, he'll steal your lunch every day and keep you from walking where he likes to walk. At this point in history, all the "...-ism"s are irrelevant, and we can see what it is - a deadly serious conflict between autocracies and democracies. It is now a hot war with Russia waging a genocidal war of aggression in Ukraine and threatening the Baltics, Poland, Germany, etc.. Zero of those countries want to live under Russia's rule, even though you think Russia should have the right because it is the largest and nearest player. China is openly threatening the entire south China Sea, none of which, again want to live under CCP rule. If it is not stopped, Russia, China, Iran, and other authoritarians will not stop. If you would rather live under the rule of Putin or the CCP, I suggest you move there, rather than attempt other free people to not defend themselves.
SllX 4y ago
Because the PRC is a nation subject to an authoritarian party that is antagonistic to the liberal democracies in that region that given half a chance looks for new and innovative ways to subject private society to more of its influence and control. Nobody should have any reason to think that short of being contained that it will stop at the “boundaries” of Asia, nor does anyone in Asia actually deserve to live subject to the CCP.

Why should the West have more influence from the other side of the world than the largest economy in the region?

by xtian 4y ago

Why should the West have more influence from the other side of the world than the largest economy in the region?

praestigiare 4y ago

I don't think the parent was discussing who should have influence, just the consequences of it.

kupopuffs 4y ago

It's not about what should be right. When the squeeze for survival comes, might makes right

ericmay 4y ago

Why not? Can we apply the same logic for China's influence in Africa, for example? Does geographic location matter more than, say, trade volume? Given that there isn't anything between the US and China (or Taiwan) except the ocean does that not give credence to the US being a partner in that area since it's a Pacific nation? If we're talking about the west, US, Japan, South Korea are either close or exceed Taiwan's trade with China, and that only includes western nations that are part of the Pacific Ocean directly (and doesn't include Canada, Australia, or New Zealand either).

xtian 4y ago
> If we're talking about the west, US, Japan, South Korea are either close or exceed Taiwan's trade with China 41% of Taiwan’s exports by dollar value went to China + Hong Kong in 2020 versus 25.4% for US + Japan + RoK. https://oec.world/en/profile/country/twn https://oec.world/en/profile/country/twn
- ericmay 4y ago
  > The United States is Taiwan’s second largest trading partner, accounting for 12.6 percent of total trade and 10.2 percent of Taiwan imports. China is Taiwan’s largest trading partner, accounting for 25.2 percent of total trade and 21.6 percent of Taiwan’s imports in 2021. In terms of total trade, other major Taiwan trading partners include Japan (10.3 percent), Hong Kong (7.8 percent), and the Republic of Korea (6.1 percent). [1] But let’s assume the numbers you listed are correct (I’m sure trade varies by year and breakdown and I assume good faith). What does it matter? Does China get 41% influence over Taiwan and the US, Japan, and South Korea get 25.4% influence? The whole line of reasoning that started this was nonsense from the start and it doesn’t even include The Jungle [2] that is relations between nation states. [1] https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/taiwan-market-overview https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/taiwan-marke... [2] In international relations might largely makes right. Powerful countries are able to impose their will and influence on other countries. For example, the US imposes its will on China w.r.t Taiwan regardless of the amount of trade that occurs between nations.

amalgamated_inc 4y ago

Because we have 11 more carrier groups than everyone else combined.

xtian 4y ago
How do they do against hypersonic missiles?
- amalgamated_inc 4y ago
  China hasn't seen combat since the Korean war. We've been at war the entire time. How's Russia doing, given their "hypersonic missiles?"
  - xtian 4y ago
    The US hasn’t been at war with peer militaries, and it’s been generally losing if you haven’t kept up. Russia is winning, but few in the West are willing to admit that yet. Here’s one who is: https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/whats-ahead-war-ukraine https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/whats-ahead-war-ukrai...
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      Russia is 10x the size of Ukraine and they will be seeing explosions in Moscow if they don’t end the war in 2023.
      - xtian 4y ago
        Alright.
    - amalgamated_inc 4y ago
      Who are these fabled "peer militaries?" :D
      - 4y ago

toss1 4y ago

So, you are saying that "Might Makes Right"; the rulers of largest economy in the region should rule the region, regardless of what the people of that region want. I doubt you will find many people in Taiwan or Japan who would rather live under the government of CCP. So, Why should the West have more influence? Because any person or group of people who want to live a self-determined life and with a self-determined government, must always be better armed, better prepared, and have better alliances than the abusers and autocrats who will steal from them and rule over them the instant they are given the chance. If you don't stop the neighborhood bully, he'll steal your lunch every day and keep you from walking where he likes to walk. At this point in history, all the "...-ism"s are irrelevant, and we can see what it is - a deadly serious conflict between autocracies and democracies. It is now a hot war with Russia waging a genocidal war of aggression in Ukraine and threatening the Baltics, Poland, Germany, etc.. Zero of those countries want to live under Russia's rule, even though you think Russia should have the right because it is the largest and nearest player. China is openly threatening the entire south China Sea, none of which, again want to live under CCP rule. If it is not stopped, Russia, China, Iran, and other authoritarians will not stop. If you would rather live under the rule of Putin or the CCP, I suggest you move there, rather than attempt other free people to not defend themselves.

SllX 4y ago

Because the PRC is a nation subject to an authoritarian party that is antagonistic to the liberal democracies in that region that given half a chance looks for new and innovative ways to subject private society to more of its influence and control. Nobody should have any reason to think that short of being contained that it will stop at the “boundaries” of Asia, nor does anyone in Asia actually deserve to live subject to the CCP.